[00:00:00] We were two in the frame, the whole team talk was just me and him just screaming at each other I think. We walked out second half, I remember going into tackle with Papa Buh-Buh-Buh Diob, remember him? In Wardrobe. Oh mate, he was a unit, ball was bouncing about middle of the pitch, I've gone straight through him, middle of the pitch. I won the ball and that was it. We ended up winning the game 2-1. He pulled me into his office at the end of the game and went, Percy said, I had to go for someone at half time. Alright, he said you're the only one, I knew that I'd get something back from you.
[00:00:32] He said, I had to get a reaction from someone and use the one that I went for. You can't ever recreate, you can be the best penalty taker ever on a training pitch. I've never missed one. You can't recreate the pressure of when there's a last minute or you're winning 1-1 and you need it to win the game. It just adds that little dimension to the pitch. You can't do it. Should you always score a penalty kick? Yeah, you should.
[00:01:00] But sometimes that little bit of pressure just puts you out a little bit. You know, just don't strike it as cleanly as you should do. And I've always said, penalties are not always about technique. He's having that bit of bottle, I think, to take it. Paralytic. I've got the physio there because he's going to have to stitch his eye up and everything like that. Waking a bit over to it. As we've got, we stayed in this place, it's like a dormant tree. So middle bit, there's big glass things in the window. So first floor, second floor.
[00:01:28] I think all the players are on the first floor, all the staff are on the second floor. As we get in, Jeff out of the car, carrying him. I've looked up and I just see Brucey just stood at the top of the thing like that looking. I thought, ah, shit. It's not going to be good. So, walked down. I think physio was doing his eye and that sort of stuff. Went to bed. He went, see me in the morning. Used to. And that was it. Went to bed. Didn't think anything of it. Next morning we was out on a run.
[00:01:56] Fucking trying to punish everybody for what we did, which was, he's apologising to the boys. But he fined us two weeks wages for it. It killed us. But it was a good night out. So I remember him walking in and with Natilla, we got to the playoffs, I think it was, after winning at home. And I remember him going, as he walked in, he put the white ball up, flipped over. He was, don't start sucking each other's dicks yet, boys. In other words, you haven't made anything. We've got to the playoffs. It might have been the first year we got to the playoffs.
[00:02:24] And I remember him putting it up on the white ball. And it just sticks in the back of my head now. Because you've done nothing. You've won nothing. You know, all you've got is got to the playoffs. Now you've got to go and do the hard work and go and win the playoffs. Before we get into this, we're doing over a million engagements a month. But most of you aren't subscribed. If you enjoy the content, hit subscribe and follow us on socials. It'll make such a massive difference. Cheers. So yeah, we're not doing formal introductions, but morning. Thanks for coming. It's an absolute pleasure.
[00:02:53] I always normally do it in the afternoon. Thanks for coming. My pleasure. Awesome. Nice to be here. So just some career stats before we start. Tell me if it's wrong. Um, 24 years playing career. Yeah, probably longer than that. It's not good that. 796 league and cup appearances, 51 goals. That seems heavy on goals. Took penalties though, didn't I? The penalties have probably made 20, 30 of them up. So the two... We ain't got reds on there. We got what?
[00:03:23] We ain't got reds on there, have we? How many reds? A lot. More than 51. I average one a season. Did you? I think I did, yeah. I was on something like... I was definitely double figures. Definitely double figures. Like so. I was trying to look at your goals just on the thing. It was just like, Darren Purse, Darren Purse, Darren Purse. It was just smacking into me. I always... One of them you made Simmersault. Yeah, he spanned it. He spanned it four times. He deserved that though. He was a little... I was at Plymouth when I was on the left. Yeah. Because we was a real young side there at Plymouth.
[00:03:52] And I remember him doing it. And I thought, it's never went in to hurt anyone. But he'd taken the piss out of one of the young boys in the corner. And I thought, I'm not having that with you. And yeah. You get balls up your friend. Yeah. It's a great tackle. Rumor us that you're still spinning now. What a great tackle. But anyways, he's just trying to look after the youngsters and teaching the people you shouldn't take the piss out of you really. I like it. I like it. You said your career started at Oriens. How did football begin for you from a young age?
[00:04:21] I was a centre forward up until I was about 14. I don't know how it all went. I used to play up front with Jason Tindall. Me and Jason Tindall was centre forwards for a team called Simrab, which is a really good Sunday league side in London. So we played together there. And we'd score sort of 30, 40 goals each. We was like ruthless and relentless. And yeah. So we did all right.
[00:04:44] And then about 14, I think a coach, a lad called Bernie Dixon, who's passed away now, who's like chief scouter at Orion. And he said, look, said to me, Dad, your boy will pay for England if you're making the centre half or you'll pay for Barnsley as a centre forward. So at 14 years of age, I took the decision to play at centre half. And it worked out to be a decent one because I would never have been good enough to be a centre forward. I was at that moment. So I was like bigger, stronger, quicker than everybody else.
[00:05:11] And all my goals and balls over the top, get away from you and you'd score, you know? So yeah. So become a centre half. And yeah, the rest is history a little bit. So I beg for a little bit. Yeah, because I've seen you up front down here. Do you know what? I think I played six games or something. I loved it. I was just running around like headless chickens. You know what I mean? It was class. Yeah, brilliant. Yeah. Really enjoyed it. So you got picked up by Orion. What were your memories of beginning out there?
[00:05:40] I was never like knowing kids are besotted and just desperate to play football. I was never desperate to play football. I enjoyed it. I was good at it. But at 16, I was going to start on a school. I had offers to be like apprenticeships at Tottenham, Arsenal, quite a few. I was lucky enough that I never signed a contract. All these kids nowadays, 12, 10, signing two year deals at clubs. Never signed a contract. Went and trained.
[00:06:09] Played for a lot of sort of professional clubs. And then at 16, I was going to start on a school. Had the offers of YT's from a couple of clubs. Even like Millwall would offer me one. But my dad said, no, concentrate on your education if that's what you want to do. But then Orion, rather than me signing a YT scholarship, they said as soon as he turned 17, we're given a professional contract. So that was it for six months from obviously like August to July, or to February when I was 17.
[00:06:37] I was just going in training every day, playing for their reserves, playing for their under-18s, playing like two games a week. It was brilliant. And they was giving me a little bit of cash in and out as expenses. So that was that. And as soon as I turned 17, signed a professional deal and three days later made my debut. So it was like, it would never happen nowadays because everything's all about contracts and stuff like that. HMRC will be all over that now as well. Well, it was expenses. Bus tickets and all that, you know what I mean? In case they couldn't chase an arse. I had to put receipts in.
[00:07:07] But yeah, so I was getting receipts and stuff like that. Yeah, so that's it. Maybe they'd be bright and away. It's three days after my 17th birthday. So for me as a 17 year old, it was class. Would I have been like chopped, gobbled up by the system as a 17 year old at Arsenal? Possibly. You know, because I was never a standout player, I don't think. But it worked out really well for me. It was the right way.
[00:07:33] My dad was and always has been class in his decisions that he's done. Watched pretty much every game that I played. So he had a big influence on my career and probably helped me make the best of what career I had really. How long then before the move to Oxford? It wasn't, you weren't there a long way. So 18 months. So I played, obviously we got relegated my first season, which was brilliant. They did the first ever documentary. I think it was on Infra 5 with John Sitton. Yeah.
[00:08:03] That was my first season as a professional footballer and learned so much. Just more about like the ruthlessness of the game. You know, I think it's 17. You go in, you sort of everybody's wide-eyed and just all this is brilliant, you know. But just when your teammate's sitting next to you and he gets sacked at half time, it's like, yeah, no worries. And when he's offering the rest of the lads out, you had to work, you had to figure. And Sitton was an exceptional football coach. Just he wasn't ready to go into the management side at that moment in time.
[00:08:33] And it probably killed his career a little bit because as a coach, he was classed. As a centre-half to centre-half, I learned so much off of him in that first 18 months there. Probably over a lot of my learnings then, because I was still quite new to the position as well. So I owe him a lot for what he taught me over that 18 months. So, yeah, it stood me in good stead for the... Like you say, like 17, you're a bit kind of what? And probably the language of him is like, it was very on the nose when it was like Justin Mourinho.
[00:09:02] Just straight as it was, honest as he was, you know, he'd say it as it is. And yeah, like I said, he taught me a lot. And it probably cost him a career in the game because he was an exceptional coach. Really liked working for him. And Anksa couldn't knock you? Yeah, so obviously I played for a year. Then Barry Hearn came in and bought Orient. So he had a big razzmatazz and all that.
[00:09:28] So I remember standing on the halfway line of thing, new kit, with a page three model in my hands like that, as a young captain of Leighton Orient. But Patsy Olland came in as manager and he weren't having me at all as a player, as a young kid. He didn't want the youngsters. So I went out to Finland and played out there for a few months during the summer. As I come back, Oxford had put in a bid for me and went and signed for Dennis Smith, who was an exceptional manager.
[00:09:56] What he did with that Oxford side back then was brilliant. I remember coming here and playing as a right wing back against Grange. That was an experience for me. You know what I mean? Grange's pass. But playing against Grange up here and yeah, it was a... They give you a friendly welcome. Always. You know, that's part of the game back in the day. Do you know what I mean? I think I was never a right wing back. I was just like running around, legs everywhere. You know what I mean? And just we'd leave a tackle on each other and that was it.
[00:10:25] But yeah, as a right wing back. But learned a lot there at Oxford as well. Also from 19 to 21, before I signed for Blues, it was a real good learning. I played alongside Matty Elliott, who was a real good player. You know what I mean? Phil Gilchrist was the other one. And between it, I'd sort of played and sort of get dropped out of it. So we learned a lot over that. Under Dennis Smith, who was a class manager, mate. What he did with that Oxford side to keep them sort of fighting for the playoffs in the championship on their budget was immense, to be fair to me.
[00:10:56] And random spot in Europe to go on loan. I did that in Finland combined. I thought just an agent friend of mine, what happened? I played most of the season before. And I think what they wanted to do, they wanted just to keep me fit and training over the summer. So you could do it back then, but there was no transfer window. So I'd sort of signed on the May, went out of May and June and just came back straight for preseason in July. So it sort of kept me playing and kept me.
[00:11:22] So I ended up going and playing like 10 games over there, which was a real good experience. Mm-hmm. So then, Oxford, you made your England under-21 debut? I think I was a... I think I'd signed for Birmingham. Was it? Yes. Was it blues that you had to under-21? So I signed for Birmingham on my, um, February the... What was it? It was my birthday, February 14th, just before it. Yeah, 21st birthday. And I could still qualify for the 21s till the end of that season. So I think I made my debut.
[00:11:51] At the end of that season, we went to the Toulon tournament, which was like 98, the tournament prior to the World Cup. Yeah. Yeah. France 98. So when I played in that against Argentina, France and South Africa, I think, were the three teams of our group. So that was a good experience. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because that France team, that was France 98. Was that Omri and... That was Omri and all that. And obviously Christophe as well, I think, wasn't it, as well. So... What was that like? It was an experience. By the way, I think we did... We was like prior to it.
[00:12:21] So it was a couple of weeks leading into it. But good experience, mate. I'll tell you, Mike Wiseman. What's his dad's name? Jack. Jack. Swinging. So Jack Wiseman. Jack Wiseman. He came on the tour party with us and obviously he was big flare trousers and all that. What a guy he was. And I literally just signed for Blues. Didn't know who he was. Just this random bloke in a shirt and tie. Came up to me. Oh, it's great to have you at Blues and everything like that. I was like, how do you know? But yeah.
[00:12:50] And then obviously he was like, was he president or something for the club for years? What a guy. What a guy. Every time he's just swinging, Percy. Swinging. That's what you say with big flare trousers. But yeah, he was on that tour party. That's probably the... You're saying everything you should remember from him. I think meeting Jack Wiseman was probably the biggest thing about me getting called up to the 21. My bike still. I know you got bumped into my a couple of weeks ago at a game. I was down for a game and yeah, he's a nice fella.
[00:13:19] People like that need to be involved in football clubs. Characters. Yeah, characters. But they've got the football club at heart. So you get owners come in and stuff like that. You need to keep people like that in football clubs. The lower down the levels you go, like sort of league to non-league, you need them people within it. Because they've got the club at heart and they want the best for the football club. So they're good people. Same with Jeremy Dale now. He's exactly the same. He's blues through and through.
[00:13:48] Businessman, obviously, but wants the best. He's not just a faceless person that's just in it to be unique. He's got a soul of the football club in there. So people like me. You were quite highly righted around that time, weren't you? When blues song, what was the story around song for blues at that time? I don't know. I think there was always, I remember in the documentary for a five, I think there was, I think I'd played in an FA Youth Cup as a centre forward. At that time, I was playing centre half for like the first team at Orion.
[00:14:16] And then in the FA Youth Cup, I remember going to Villa and beating Villa 2-1 and scoring both goals. That'd be good, wouldn't it? Yeah. You know what I mean? We'll find that. Clip that up. That's it. So scoring. So I played a heart to pull away, I think it was, on a Tuesday night, and then played Villa away on a Wednesday night. So it never happened nowadays. You know what I mean? But played 90 minutes for the first team on a Tuesday night, and then playing in the Wednesday night in the FA Youth Cup as a centre forward. So that was an experience. You were coming or going, did you? You know what I mean? Back to goal, front to goal, front to goal. You could do it there, back and there.
[00:14:45] You could just get on with it. Nowadays, sports science, the football prevention office, as I call them, sports science, they stopped me playing. So it never happened now. But yeah, it stood me all right. Yeah. So what was the call from Blues? Oh, yeah. So obviously, I'd played Orient, and then I'd had, like I said, Chelsea had offered 50 grand, Orient turned that down. And I think there was talk about bloody Blackburn when they were champions coming in for me and stuff like that.
[00:15:14] So there's a lot of talk about me. Yeah. And then obviously Blues came in with a bid. The club had accepted it. Dennis Smith had literally, he'd left Oxford at the same time and gone. And he rung me up, wanting me to sign for West Brom. But Birmingham just seemed like the right call. And if you'd have said that after I'd made my debut, Burry at home, and we lost 3-1, played it right back. Wish I'd gone to West Brom.
[00:15:43] But the rest is history. It worked out to be a decent move. What was it like coming to play for Trev? What were your impressions of Trev at that time? Brilliant man-manager. You know what I mean? From that point of view, really personal. I remember going to meet him with my dad, having dinner with him and Helen. And I think that was probably his best part, was his man-management, knowing a player. Was he the best tactically? Probably not.
[00:16:12] Was he the best on the coaching pitch? No, because he used to join in training pretty much every day. He had people to do that. But yeah, he knew what the football club was all about. He understood that. And probably I think the biggest travesty is he weren't the manager that got us promoted. And then missed out on the playoffs all those times. Then Bruce, he comes in and gets us promoted. So that was probably hard for him to take, because he always wanted the club to do well. Yeah. But... Do you think he was too invested in that one, because of his history with the club? Possibly.
[00:16:42] Probably too nice as well. You know, probably... You've got to be ruthless as a manager. And I think maybe he was a little bit too nice. You know, probably didn't sort of get rid of one or two too early that probably stayed in the club too long. I don't know. But yeah, that's probably the one thing you would say about him. He's just too nice with what he did. But he always wanted people to do well and he always wanted the club to do well. So from that point of view, I think his heart was in the right place. Yeah.
[00:17:09] But when we had Skip on it, Skip said that if you were to say something to him assertively, Gaffer, and you're passionate about it, he's... He could sway him. He could sway him. You know what I mean? And he didn't sort of manage egos very well. The best thing I'd say, Trevor put together a top side. When you look at the side that he put together, it was some real good... But the players managed it for him. You know, Skip was class. I mean, Martin O'Connor, the way he...
[00:17:36] For me as captain, obviously, captain blues, but I learned a lot from him in them early years. You know what I mean? And what it's like to be a captain, how to look after a group of players and not let people take the piss, not let people sort of get too high and above their station, but keep everybody on a level pegging and make sure I know everybody respects what the players are all about and the group are all about rather than standout individuals. So he was class at that, to be fair.
[00:18:03] Well, I think it's testament to the team at the time that he mentioned, and with the characters in there like yourself and Skip, Trevor'd give it five minutes before going in at halftime. If you're getting dicked two and a half time and people are shit, you will kind of dig people out and say, and then he'd come in once it's all kind of simmered down. I imagine that that... If you ever come to blows, they have like Royal Rumble in there. There was a lot of characters, weren't there? No, nobody ever came to blows.
[00:18:32] But you'd get into people's faces and it was never personal. And this is one thing I would say about football and I've learned is it's never personal. All you ever want to do is, A, do well for yourself, but do well for the team. And if somebody's the... If you're calling somebody something personally, it's not on. But if you're saying that's not good enough, that's not acceptable. And people make mistakes, you know what I mean? And stuff like that. And we'd never dig somebody out for making a mistake because that happened.
[00:19:00] But if you weren't doing it and you weren't running and you weren't getting back and you were pulled out of a tackle, little things like that, then you get called out on it. And I think that was the biggest thing. But it's also a little thing like respecting the group. Don't be late. You know what I mean? Back in the day, nobody was ever really late for stuff. You know, you was always in meetings on time, always ready to travel on time, always respected the group. And I think that was the biggest thing I could say about that Blues group then. We respected everything that was about the team that were in there. And nobody really stepped out of line too much.
[00:19:30] But you can have heated conversations, you know, and I think it's right sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. No. Some of that stuck with me from Tony Cotan, that he said he wasn't particularly bothered about impressing the fans or impressing family or impressing... He wanted to impress his teammates. He wanted to be there. Like, it's like a kind of... It's a war, isn't it? It was a war at the time. We used to... I talk about it all the time in a minute. I had to be in the mentality of I was going to war a little bit.
[00:19:59] He said, it's quite far-fetched to think of it like that. But I always trained the way I played. I'd kick someone in training. I've never meant to hurt anyone, but I'd kick someone in training, shake his hand, walk up and get on with it. I had to be on it all the time. Otherwise, I was a bank average player, you know what I mean? I had to be on it all the time. And that's what it was like. I don't... I remember Megson, Gary Megson, when I went to West Brom, we were 1-0 down at Fulham at home. And I remember him.
[00:20:27] We walked in and he basically just ripped into me. I just think... And I was like, I stood up, give a bit back to him and everything like that. So we were two in the frame. The whole team talk was just me and him just screaming at each other, I think. We walked out second half. I remember going into tackle with Papa Bubba Diob. Remember him? In wardrobe. Oh, mate. He was a unit. The ball was bouncing about middle of the pitch. I've gone straight through him, middle of the pitch. I won the ball and that was it. We ended up winning the game 2-1. He pulled me into his office at the end of the game and went...
[00:20:57] Percy said, I had to go for someone at half-time. He said, you're the only one. I knew that I'd get something back from you. So that was that. So we're sitting there having a beer. We'd won the game 2-1. But was I having a bad game? Probably not. But he just... He said, I had to get a reaction from someone and use the one that I went for. So I knew I'd get something back. And everything was perfect. Yeah. It's your teammates seeing that then thinking, Jesus Christ, I don't want that. We've got to whoop it. But also, we have got that. And then you've gone and... Yeah. Like a tackle sometimes. Yeah, a little bit.
[00:21:27] And that was it. Just a tackle. He said, just ignited us. And we've run until we win the game. So little things like that I look back on from a man management point of view, the players you can go. I always reacted better to tough love rather than me arm around me shoulder. You know what I mean? I hate praise and stuff like that. So I'm just... Roy King talks about it all the time. And I get it. You're just doing your job. I mean, what? Heading that ball and putting your head on the ball to stop it going back and actually job. You know what I mean? Yeah. Whenever I'm listening to him talk in this class, because it's just how it should be. That's your job.
[00:21:57] Running around after the ball is your job. Either do it or don't. Don't do it. You're not going to have a career in the game because it will chew you up and eat you up and spit you out as quick as you know it. So even like on that, skipping forward a little bit here, but we've had the Preston clip out, didn't we? It's got loads of Preston fans on it. Best night of their life. We've rattled some Preston cages yesterday. They're like, it's the greatest night of their life. But it's a lot of it's focused on the penalty shootout and the way that went. So like you're talking, no nonsense.
[00:22:27] What was that like on the pitch? You look like you're fuming in that clip. A little bit. Do you know what? I knew I was going to take the first penalty as well. I don't know. I think I took the second one. Marcelo took the first one. Marcelo, yeah. But I knew I was, and all you wanted to do was just stay focused. Do you know what I mean? You know what he's going to do. Don't you just do it. And it was just a lot of faff over nothing. I mean, apparently they'd agreed it was going to be at the open end, and then they switched it to put the other end for police safe. I don't know.
[00:22:57] Fire safety. I believe if we'd have just gone, bang, do it, that would have won the game. Yeah. You know what I mean? But it was a lot of faff over nothing. And then we went and sat in the bloody changing room for five minutes before. It was just, yeah. And it just got to the point where I think he thought, well, I've made my decision now. I've got to stick with it. Yeah. And you can't stick with it, can you? No. You just keep coming back to eventually still like moaning at the copper and moaning at people.
[00:23:26] And yeah, I think what the best thing about it, and if you learn from it, if I was to learn from it, if stuff like that goes against you, that's when you go, bang, they hate us, boys. They're against us. Let's go and fucking win this game. Yeah. You know what I mean? Go and fucking take your pen. Be ruthless with it. Go and win the game. Stick two fingers up at the end of the season. We walk off. Go and win the playoff final. Yeah. You know? So from that point of view, I think you can learn from it. It was a lot of faff over nothing. Is that the reason I missed my penalty? No. It's just no. It's just hit the post. It is what it is. You know what I mean? Two inches inside.
[00:23:55] It's a goal, but it's great. He's more fine margins. But yeah, it was a lot of faff for nothing. And Benno, that one at the end. Benno got his hands for us. Are you like, listen, the wonderful. It's Stan Lazarus. The cross. Who did he cross it to? Last minute of bloody normal time. Ah, cut. Was that Marcelo? Yeah, it was Marcelo. He missed a couple of days. Great ball from him. There's always going to be a reason why you did or you didn't get there. And yeah, disappointing time. Yeah.
[00:24:22] So on the selection of playoff games. So second season in, we're in the playoffs, aren't we? That was, how heartbreaking was that, Watford? Watford, penalties again. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the first time we go into the playoffs, end up in penalties. Talk us through that. I think that was the year that Trevor started talking about psychologists here and everything like that.
[00:24:53] Penalties are always a lottery. Did we deserve to win the game against Watford over the two legs? Probably. I mean, I thought we played well over both legs and we just missed out on penalties. It's hard. The year afterwards, Sheffield United got beat 4-0 at home. Where was that? Oh, it was Barnsley, was it? Sorry, I apologise. Well, that's it. Where's that? Where's that was off-prone from? Wow, yeah. Yeah. All right, that game. Yeah. Beat 4-0 at home. So I was watching that back and it just seemed like everything that we were doing just didn't work out.
[00:25:21] Like we had the offside just didn't seem to be working. It seems to be getting round the back. And then everyone just looked so pedestrian and slow. It was like, I don't know, was it like a, oh, this is going to be okay. Turn up. A little bit of... Possibly just a bit, yeah. Arrogance. Yeah, Arrogance. There's a bit too much confidence. I think we're going to win the game. But that was a hard one to take. It's a shot of shot. Because the second game is a non-event thing. You know what I mean? The game's done. So... At the time it was like England and Blues. It was like, what? It was like penalties.
[00:25:51] It was just like, fuck's sake. It was just... What was that? Did that drive you? What do you say after that? What do you mean? What was said full-time after that? Not a lot really, mate. No. No, it was a shelf shot. Yeah, a little bit. A little bit. Yeah, it's hard. I'm trying to remember back to when we... So I think it was when we had the port cabins. I mean, that stand was being built and they had the port cabins on the back there.
[00:26:18] But yeah, it was like, I don't remember too much about it. I remember the first leg of... I'm trying to think what game it was. Millwall, I think it might have been at home. I remember Frank Barlow. I'm trying to think. Frank Barlow. It could have been that because Frank would have been there then. I remember him walking in and with Nautilla, we got to the playoffs, I think it was, after winning at home. And I remember him going... As he walked in, he put the whiteboard up, flipped over.
[00:26:48] He said, don't start sucking each other's dicks yet, boys. In other words, you haven't made anything. We've got to the playoffs. It might have been the first year we got to the playoffs. And I remember him putting it up on the whiteboard. And it just sticks in the back of my head now. Because you've done nothing. You've won nothing. You know, all you've got is got to the playoffs. Now you've got to go and do the hard work and go and win the playoffs. So from that point of view, it was quite things you remember. It's a good Ted talk, aren't you? It's good, isn't it? It's quite a good analogy. I quite like it. I haven't used it yet, but one day I will.
[00:27:17] You should go up to the pair. You're not allowed to use it this day. I can't. I'd be all over that. So, yeah. All right. So those were the lies. The lies. There's no losses. There's only lessons, isn't there? Yeah. Let's talk about the Wivington Cup final. So just talk us from that season. Yeah. Because that was a good season. Plower of the year, wasn't it? Yeah. Plower of the year that season. It was probably my breakthrough season at the club, really. I say breakthrough season. I think I played quite a lot up until then.
[00:27:46] But I was probably 24. I'd done my age. Yeah, a little bit. I'd done me learning. I knew what I was. I'd grasp what I was as a player a little bit. I think early doors, I thought I was better than what I was. I'd give away a mistake by bloody trying to die pass and all that sort of stuff. I was going to say this to you. So when you first came, those became famous. The attempted long balls. Yeah. They just go. But then you mastered it. And then that become a part of your armoury then, didn't it?
[00:28:15] I think the early doors, I was still learning my game as a 21-year-old. I was sitting at half the time coming to age until they were 23, 24. You make mistakes. I used to make loads of mistakes. You know what I mean? I used to get hammered by the fans because of it. So I'm glad they remember probably the last four years that I was here rather than the first three years. You know what I mean? Because I used to cross goals all the time. Are you aware of that when it's happening? Not really. Not really.
[00:28:40] Because I think when you say coming of age, 21, I was still worried about Darren Purse and my career and stuff like that. You know what I mean? It's only when you become like captain full-time and stuff like that, you start being aware of the whole bigger picture of the football club and what the football club is. And you start worrying about everybody else rather than yourself. So that was a, and I think that was probably a big coming of age moment for me, sort of round at 23, 24, because you look at everything else and it made me a better player by doing
[00:29:10] it. I think it showed what I was really good at, my sort of leadership qualities, being that leader around addressing them on the pitch, being harsh, driving the team through as much as best you can. That was what I was probably most famous for. I look back at some of the photos of me throughout my career. Yeah, nine out of ten of them are me screaming at someone and pointing at someone. But that was me. Like I said, I sort of tried to get the best out of the players that I was playing with.
[00:29:37] And that's the reason it was like you'd kind of just, you were like colossus. Yeah, but I could feel that as well. You know what I mean? That was probably, that two, three years there was probably the best part. And it all went tits out when I got the ankle injury and Matty Alpsen come in and that was, that's football, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So going back to the cup final, what do you remember? He's a leader. Yeah. Class. So we got in there light because the traffic into the heart of the world. It's that bad, wasn't it? Yeah. I remember it snowing the night before.
[00:30:08] I remember sitting in the hotel and everything like, it was like chucking it down with snow. It was like, where we stayed at. We stayed in a hotel right far out, apparently it was David Sullivan's mate or something like that. So we had the whole hotel to ourselves, it was nice. And I remember it snowing and it was coming over the thing that they're going to close the roof and everything like, because of the snow. So I think he made it a better atmosphere the way it was. But it's still, when you talk about obviously deserves, we deserve to win that game.
[00:30:37] How we didn't win the game, I'll never know. Because the boys were immense the whole game. At it. Just at it. Did you find, were you surprised that how you weren't, because obviously the run up to the final, we'd knocked teams out, Premier League teams. But did you find that that wasn't above your level? Was it a surprise that you were able to match them up man to man and perform so well? I don't think it surprised, it didn't surprise us anyway. I think we were always going there with a thing that we were going to win the game. Or we were going to give it a good go anyway.
[00:31:07] And like you said, beating Newcastle at home here and stuff like that. Yeah, destroyed them. Mate, we did. First off, I remember Trevor Francis walking in at Whitehall Lane, 3-0 up, and he went, can somebody just pinch me? Because we were just, Dealey, Dealey was unreal. They got bullied them, didn't they? Just absolutely bullied them off the pad. And Birchie played as well, didn't he? On loan from Celery.
[00:31:36] The first loan player from the fall in love with me. And he was classed that day as well. With Dealey and him playing off, we were superb. And yeah, I just think we always thought we had a chance. Because if you look at that group, we backed the group to go and get something. And I think over 120 minutes, we deserved to win the game. Just a disappointing bit of penalties. Penalties are not good, are they? Just seem to haunt everything. I know. So we got in there, finally.
[00:32:06] About 20 minutes in, weren't it? Yeah, sat down. And then foul off. Roof of the net. Just as we sat down, like... Absolutely disgusting finish. So you're kind of up against it. And then, does the belief stay right up until the last moments? I think if you look at the last 20 minutes, we're pushing. I haven't watched it back for years, you know what I mean? But we're pushing. And I think John McCarthy, he put in two or three really good balls. And we'd sort of never quite dropped for us. And obviously the penalty happened, which was mad. And yeah.
[00:32:37] So what are you thinking in the 90-yard minute? Are you just... What's going through you, Ed? People... I talk about it quite... It's surreal, mate. Honestly. I look back on it now. I still remember it. I remember that over from going down, Grange and Martin O'Connor. And the ball was there. I just picked the ball up. And I walked up to the halfway line. I'd love to have like a bird's eye view of it to see it. But 80,000 people. Everybody all going off. I was like on my own. It was weird. Real surreal moment.
[00:33:07] I just walked around. I had the ball under me thing like that. No one came up to me. Like usually you get like a Liverpool player. I go, you're going to miss this and all that sort of stuff. Nobody came up to me. Just that... About two and a half minutes. Just on my own. And I knew what I was going to do with it. If the keeper saves it, he saves it. Do you know what I mean? But I think if you go in... I've always said with penalties. If you go in with Clary, where are you going to put the ball? Whatever happens from there. What happens is he's destructible. And lucky enough, it was... Like that. It went in the background there. Which... It was mad. And then I went... As I ran off to celebrate, I was going to take my shirt off.
[00:33:37] And I was like, shit, I've been booked. Can't do that. So I did this fucking weird. I looked at it after. I said, what the hell are you doing, you donut? You look like a prick. But you're doing it celebrating. Biggest moment of your career. You celebrate like that, you donut. Yeah. Remember this now. What's that all about, weirdo? Weird jobs just fall off your head. We loved it. Yeah, from the first time. We was like... But no, it was class. It was brilliant. Did you have that adage in your head? Let's not suck each other's dicks just yet.
[00:34:07] Oh, no. I've never got it. I've never got it. I think he's just looking... You're looking at something I've always done throughout. Everywhere, every game, I'd always find me dad. My dad, he went, well, that's pretty much every game I played. Always find me dad. I think after I've scored, you see me point up to him. Because I should imagine he would have been ecstatic with it all. Do you know what I mean? So it was a proud moment. If we have to, let's talk about that. The challenge on AJ.
[00:34:36] One of your photos pointing and shouting at someone. He's one of them, Ellery. He's David Ellery. Bad tackle, isn't he? It's still too soon, 25 years later. So the whistle blows then. We're going into extra time. Obviously, you've got your heads up. I'm assuming they're quite deflated at that point. Yeah, I'd like to say that. Bearing in mind, we played a whole of extra time with 10 men as well. Skip was done. You know what I mean? He was just... The body just stood around. Every now and then, he'd get the ball and pass it to someone. But that was it. He went.
[00:35:05] So to finish the game with 10 men like we did, AJ should have done. Unreal penalty, isn't it? You know what I mean? Such a stick-up. Do you get two penalties in a game, though? Against the football. When you're a little blues. You know what I mean? But it was a penalty and should have been given, but it wasn't. But then I'm going to go... Elvie should have sent me off Villa at Omir. Right. With a tackle with one Pavlain girl. They show it every year now whenever there's a Villa... Honestly, it was a terrible...
[00:35:34] I took him out knee-high and he books me and I walk away and I thought, fuck, wait, we're on there. So yeah, he looked after me a little bit. Have that one? Yeah, I have to really look at that one. Just literally down there on the halfway line, Villa blues, one Pavlain girl. Honestly, find it. I've got to say, your reds are always decent reds. It's never any great. No, like pushing and touching faces. It's always a... Yeah, all right. After time, you're like... You didn't leave a reasonable day, did you? It was always... Yeah.
[00:36:03] As fans, though, as fans, we don't mind it. It's in-set, obviously. Depending on that. Do I look back on some of my tackles and think, that's a bad one now. Prison time. I've never gone in intentionally to hurt someone. Do you know what I mean? It's just mistyping, bad... I did one on Andy Cole for Cardiff that gave him 12 stitches down his shin. You know what I mean? It's a bad tackle. I didn't go in intentionally to hurt him, you know, but I think it's something that plagued me. I always wanted to go through a season without missing a game.
[00:36:31] I never did it because I was always suspended for... Yeah, the injuries were fine. Yeah, I did it a few times without getting injured, but never... Yeah, I always had a suspension, so... So, yeah. Just doverting back to Cardiff then. So, when he goes to penalties then, are you thinking, I'm going to put it in the same spot? Pretty much. It's always that catch-22, and the keeper knows what way you like or what way you want to go. I always favoured that side. It was sort of...
[00:37:01] It felt comfortable for me to do that, to take that penalty that side, so, I mean, in them sort of, say, pressure moments and that, I think you probably go back to what your tried and tested one, that was probably my tried and tested. And have a proper blast on it. Yeah, a little bit. It's always got pace on it. Even if the keeper gets to it, you've got half chance of it going in. You know, these little dinky ones where they roll it in the size and that. I call them the savescapes, you know, when it's nice height, that way, and that way for the keeper. That's it. Anything sort of low with a bit of pace, anything high with a bit of pace, you've got half chance. Anything sort of
[00:37:31] two foot off the ground, the keeper's got real good chances of saving. If it goes the right way. Being from coaching, playing, what do people put it then? And just the casual walk-ups and stuff now, it's fashionable. Yeah, but one that you can't ever recreate, you can be the best penalty taker ever on a training pitch. I'd say I've never missed one. But you can't recreate the pressure of when there's a last minute or you're winning one, or it's one-one and you need it to win the game.
[00:38:01] It just adds that little dimension to it. Should you always score a penalty kick? Yeah, you should. But sometimes that little bit of pressure just puts you out a little bit. You know, just don't strike it as cleanly as you should do. And I've always said penalties are not always about technique. It's having that bit of bottle, I think, to take it. Plus 90 minutes on the pitch of grueling, running around. You're tired. You're a bit... Concentration levels. There's a lot to go on with it. Yeah. So getting over the devastation
[00:38:30] of losing that game when we shouldn't... I mean, to be fair, we lost, but you came over with a lot of credit, didn't you? The stock was high for pretty much everyone, Blues in general, because that Liverpool team won everything that year. No, they were class, wouldn't they? Do you know what? That was probably the difference. If you look at our build-up into that game, losing playoffs and stuff like that, especially on penalties, and you look at their build-up with regards to winning stuff, winning European tournaments, they probably had that little bit of a winner's mentality, knew what it was like to get over the line with stuff. That might have been the difference.
[00:39:00] You know, and I think we probably learned that at the end of that, by the time we'd done that. And obviously winning the Wutherland Cup in 2012 was not me, but I think sometimes you gain that winner's mentality. There's still players within that group that then go in and do that. So I think there's something to be said of it. Was there... So obviously chronologically then, yeah, so we lose to Preston then in the playoffs. Trev then start the next season. We didn't start right, did we?
[00:39:29] And that's when obviously the challenge came with Steve. Was there a kind of an inevitability to that? Did you kind of feel like you were at the end of the road with Trev at that point with the squad? Did it feel naturally like... Did he lose the dressing room? I don't think he ever lost the... I hate that analogy, do you know what I mean? But I think sometimes you can't have the same voice for too long. You know, sometimes it does need... It does need freshener. I think we were... I think it was only two points off but we were in 13th I think when Bruce had come in. But we were only two points off the playoffs.
[00:39:59] It was really tight, wasn't it? So maybe that's... Maybe just that... We just needed that change at that moment in time and obviously Bruce had come in in and... Did he get promoted with Sheffield United before? I'm trying to think... Sometimes that just... That winning sort of drive at times and it just... It clicked for him. He had some real good players in there and it just... His voice coming in. Did he change much tactically? Not really. You know,
[00:40:29] still the same players but... You know, just for some reason it worked for him and it didn't work for Trevor. Was he on the grass with you? Was he... Not really. I mean, Taf, Mark Bowen was a really good coach. He worked under him. Bruce, he wasn't really one. They'd do a bit of tactical stuff but he wasn't really one that would be on the coach 20 to like every day with you. We might go out and do the warm-up and stuff like that and he'll pop his head out and come out and do it then but he wasn't
[00:40:58] sort of on the coaching pitch every day with us. But yeah, I couldn't put anything like a moment that made it turn but for some reason it worked out really well. What was the first conversations with you then? Captain and memories of kind of... Oh yeah. Well, the Watford game, the Watford game parlor said the commentator saying Tyler 2, captain's the captain that had the R-band taken off him because he wouldn't
[00:41:28] sign a new contract and you'd scored then against Watford and Tommy Moon a new withstanding captain. I can't say that. I was 24, 25 at the time. My stock was really high. I was doing alright. There was talk about Arsenal and bloody £5 million. I don't know what was going on. Nobody said anything to me. I always said to my agent at the time I don't want to know anything unless we're going. So he never really told me whether he was
[00:41:58] having conversations or not. I don't know. But I just wanted to play football and concentrate on me football. If I'm being honest, the offer that Blues were offering was pants off. You know what I mean? It wasn't that much more than what I was earning from the start. So from that point of view it was right for me not to sign the contract and it wasn't right for me and I've said it throughout my career. I say it to all the under 21 boys now. If you sign a contract, don't ever complain if you're not happy with it. If you're not happy
[00:42:27] with a contract, don't sign a contract. You know, that's life. You know, talk about sliding doors moments and stuff like that. Yeah, you've got to be happy once you sign on that line because you're signing your life away a little. You're committing to it. You can't then sign that contract and two months later throw your dummy out of the pram because they brought somebody else in who's on more money than you or who's taking your place. You sign the contract, you deal with it. And I wasn't happy with the contract. It was similar. Did I love playing for Blues?
[00:42:56] I 100% loved it. I had a great four years leading up to that. And I always remember, obviously, I didn't play in the playoff final. I was suspended again. But I remember Taff, Mark Bowen, when we got promoted, everybody was celebrating. I was in my suit and he just came over to me, hugged me and just said, you've got to sign now, ain't you? And yeah, part of it was about money, but part of it was I just wanted to play at the highest level I could. Part of it now for me as a coach manager
[00:43:25] is I want to manage at the highest level that I can. So if the opportunity comes to manage at a high level, you take it. But is there at least an amendment then so there was a promotion bonus or increase in that? It was a promotion. It's not the same contract that Trollskis signed. Championship, Premier League. Premier League had just come in. It was called the Premiership back then, wasn't it? But that was it. There was more money and plus I was playing at the highest level. My agent weren't happy when I said to him I was going to sign. He wanted me to go and run it out and be a free at the end of the next season.
[00:43:55] That's all you had left? I had a year left on my contract. But for me I wanted to stay. I didn't want to go anywhere but I just wanted what I felt I was worth but also I wanted the opportunity to play at the highest level. When we got promoted to the Premier League it was a bit of a no-brainer thing to sign it. Fair plagues. I bet your agent was for you because you got a sign-in-on fee waiting. I don't know who he'd spoken to or anything but whether or not he liked it or not I wanted to stay. I didn't want
[00:44:25] to go anywhere and the opportunity to play in the Premier League for Blues was too good to turn down. And there was more money. Playing the playoffs and that cup final though and being an English central defender at that time, again, you're in the match of the day. We always thought that you were going to go. You were performing really well for all those stand out things. If we didn't go up,
[00:44:54] we wouldn't feel like I would have signed probably not because I don't think the money would have been there and the opportunity to play in the Premier League would have been brilliant. But I'm glad we did get promoted because it meant I had another three years at the club which I loved playing for. And you'll always have that first goal in the Prem. It's a good strike as well. I won an only goal in the Prem. But it's decent with strikers. Yeah. Devs was saying he scored the first goal at St Andrews. That's his clan's fight. No one can ever take it.
[00:45:24] You're in the history books. Worth signing then, wasn't it? It's definitely worth signing. What are your members of socialized together? We liked to drink. I'm saying it like we was out every weekend. We wasn't. But we would go out and socialize together. Which I
[00:45:54] think helped with everything we did. You always have fans. There weren't people taking photos of you. He's had the strip club. I don't remember the strip club. Nah. You wouldn't. I don't actually remember it.
[00:46:24] Yeah. So those were the places within that. Yeah. So obviously you say your ankle injury kind of threw a spanner into the works. Yeah. I've always been really lucky with injuries. Never really had any sort of. I was playing for it for months. I had a niggly ankle injury. We were getting sore. I had a couple of scans and x-rays on it. And we had an international break. I think we had
[00:46:53] 15 days or 16 days. So we played on the Friday night we might have done or Saturday. I had the operation on a Saturday evening and the next game was two weeks Monday. I was going to be fit for it. So to have an operation and then go and be fit 16 days later. It was only just a little clean up, little wash out. And after about a week, the stitches hadn't healed properly and I'd started doing a bit of running on it
[00:47:22] and it felt right. I don't know if it felt too soon. It actually felt right. But I remember on a Saturday night I looked at my ankle and my ankle just went bang. I had yellow pus pissing out of where the scar was where it hadn't healed properly. And I was in hospital on a Sunday morning having bloody antibiotics pumped into me. He was in the January window and Bruce went and signed Matty Upsom. He knew I was going to be out for a bit. The rest, as they say, is history. I think once
[00:47:52] that had happened, I think his preferred pairing were Kenny and Matty. Didn't really play much the last probably 18 months that I was here and had to move on. Was there a conversation to be had then? Not a conversation to be had. It got to the point where I had a year left on my contract. I wasn't playing much. I think it was best for both of us. I didn't want to spend another year not playing as much as what I've done. I think throughout my career I've always wanted to play. Even after I'd left West Brom,
[00:48:22] I had two years left on my contract at West Brom, but I walked away from it because I wanted to play when I signed for Carlyleff. Even then, it didn't cost me financially a year, but I just wanted to play football. I didn't want to be someone that played 400 games, had a half decent career. I wanted to go and play as many games as I could. I think that probably shows in how many games I've played. There's a lot more sending offs to squeeze in before. Without sending offs, I'd have played nearly 900 in it.
[00:48:53] So what was it making to move to West Brom then? I don't remember any abrasion. I don't remember there being any real. We've had Roger Johnson on very different circumstances when he went to Wolves. I think I'd serve me time. I'd been here eight years. I think I'd serve me time. If you look at me last year, I'd probably played 15-20 games maybe. I was in and out. Obviously Bruce didn't fancy me. There was other players that were better than me. There's
[00:49:23] no falling out. We didn't dislike each other. It might have been the year that Jeff Kenner signed and we got fined two weeks wages when we were out in the piss one pre-season up in Scotland. We never fell out. You cut to the lab right out. We went to Anstrava, which is the end of the earth. I think Man United had gone there. It was Bruce's first pre-season. It was a Wednesday night. He went go out and have a drink boys.
[00:49:53] I want everybody back in by 11 o'clock. We'd gone out at five in the afternoon. Me and Jeff Kenner were in the taxi on the way back from St Andrews to Anstrava. He said to me, I can't do his Irish accent, Percy, I don't know you from Adam. But you fancy going back out? I went yeah. So he said to Dundee across the bridge. I'll just go back into St Andrews. So he
[00:50:23] spun back around the taxi drive and back into the So we're sitting there just the two of us about two o'clock in the morning we've walked out of the place Jeff pissed as a far I'm drunk as well fell over and cut his head open so I remember sitting on the curb in St Andrews all the students sitting there holding his eye together jumped in the taxi I think the taxis cost me about 50 quid because he's got blood pissing out of his head so
[00:50:53] I've run you need to come out and help me to get Jeff out of the car you know what mean I think he's paralytic got a physio there because he's going to have to stitch his on the first floor the staff on the second floor as we get in Jeff out of the
[00:51:23] car carrying him I I looked up and I he's apologising to the boys but he fined us two weeks wages for
[00:51:52] it and killed us but it was a good night out so beautiful friendship between you wages nowadays two weeks in the dugout that's
[00:52:22] it but yeah good times that's class so favourite favourite game that stands out absolutely Ipswich at home here Ipswich at home I think a lot of people say the atmosphere was unbelievable it went there it was unreal and to finish the way it did it was class the atmosphere was just bouncing everywhere I'm the foundations were done a few years ago the leftover
[00:52:52] bits from that game was unreal the noise in it you can still relive it the build up to the game the pitch looked terrible because of the blowers burnt all the grass on the pitch and everything it gives you that that was the tactic from Trev wasn't it cut the pitch out
[00:53:22] we were actually a decent side passing wise I don't know why we would want to mess the pitch up but it worked out in where the club is now and where it was
[00:53:52] then it had like a real family feel to it you know like losing the rover plant is massive to where the club was and where it is because we lost so much then like a little bit harder the club had gone because there were so many fans from that plant and I know one sort of decision can't change the dynamic of a football club I think he did a little bit so it was to
[00:54:22] come back to blues playing then to where it was probably five ten years ago before the take over and stuff it felt a little bit so it lost its heart a hard it class you know what mean the stories that he's got and the stories you've got on horse are mad
[00:54:51] he's such a character just seemed like a great team spirit and like you say there could be some of that and there's there's been talk of there was but like you say it's nothing personal but but I think it needed that and it reflects the fantasy it shows as well you can't buy it honestly you can't buy it I look back at that and that would probably be and I did a little bit at Cardiff but that is what you need within a group
[00:55:21] of players that sort of you what bloke you know what mean it deserves every accolade he's got at this football club to see him score a goal against man united with a broken fib is mad do you know what
[00:56:04] we play Saturday Saturday and we come in and we say we fit they might have a dead leg or something we fit but we probably hang in
[00:56:34] yeah West Heath snooker club but they had a match table and when we would go out there and iron the table for us we'd have a set of match balls we'd leave our snooker queues up there but we'd do it all
[00:57:04] did you talking about most Cardiff did you think you were going to be walking out Wembley I didn't really walk out Wembley there's a little stat for I was on the bench every game never played a minute in the FA Cup final but you weren't captain I was captain but it was the last year I was 32 getting towards the end of it and yeah I just never played a minute so
[00:57:34] nice yeah I was captain club captain yeah club captain it's that token gesture I don't want to take the captaincy off him but little things I look back on my time at Cardiff and Wodge came in as a youngster we had a lad called Glenn Leuvens I was 32 I think Dave Jones thought I was done which is fine this football was all about opinions and them me that moment in time you
[00:58:05] look back at the two careers the boys have had I would like to think they learnt a lot off of me the good scored
[00:58:35] goals he was me at 23 years of age quite centred on him when he was playing at Cardiff he played for himself which is fine he had his career and I I I a lot of Rod if you look at Rod his career he
[00:59:05] probably very similar to mine started out at Wickham got his move had to force his way in then nicked another couple of moves so it's very similar to career to mine and he's done well with it he's a a bit chaotic but when you talk about group
[00:59:37] of players and one of my big regrets now is I went into that group of players after all that I'd learned and kept my mouth shut which I was terrible at the time there was clicks around the group that
[01:00:06] weren't great it wasn't a good dressing room at all hence why we got relegated it just wasn't a good place to be around were there good players there like Franny Jeffers Mickie Gray Marcus Tugue Leon Clark good players but the dynamic of the dressing room was wrong felt so wrong from going in there we deserved to get relegated was it a conscious decision and not to say anything I don't know mate you're captain there
[01:00:36] I was captain like I said I looked back on it and I should have dug a few people out I was so far away from what it might have been a lack of confidence a little bit I'd finished at Cardiff hadn't really played much that kept I jumped into a few things I shouldn't have done
[01:01:05] and it wasn't a good time poor dressing room mate and I look back on the shelf and went biggest club I've played for bigger than Blues bigger than Cardiff bigger than West Brom it's a club that if somebody gets hold of it it could be a power house it's huge mate it needs to go if you had somebody in charge of that it could be it's a
[01:01:47] regrets of my time one of my regrets was not doing that at Sheffield Wednesday you followed down from you had some lone spells you end up at Plymouth keeping them up was one of my best achievements in
[01:02:18] I was 36 35 come to the end of my career I should have stayed there every chance I would have been under 21 job would have been amazing but I still wanted to play I still had that drive to play and Skivo rung me on low and I pushed it he started bringing
[01:02:47] us in on a Saturday morning so I trained Monday to Friday I was living in Northampton travelling to Millwall it was like two hours every day so I was like it's a Saturday morning Ken the gaffer it's doing me I would have trained all the time had the weekend off and if you need me I I'm ready to go so that I would come in on out of the squad
[01:03:17] so got the move to Yeovil as soon as it got announced to Yeovil Peter Rysdale rung me he said why are you
[01:03:47] he put the contract on the table and I went you just come out of administration he said Percy you've got to trust me he said if I give you he
[01:04:17] had young 18 19 year old lad good player Curtis Nelson Luke Young who wrecks him and stuff like that central so he had a real good nucleus of young players he signed me as centre half he signed Paul Watton as central midfielder and signed Warren Feeney Nick Chadwick as two forwards so experienced players through the spine where the rest of them were just young players mate so we got a real group dynamic got a little song going with everybody and we stayed up with two days to go two games to go man
[01:04:47] unbelievable achievement to do it and I look back on that and he was like he was class mate he was to do it but he knew he probably believed in me a little bit he'd seen what I'd done at Cardiff with Captain C where did you know Rick style from he chairman of Cardiff we've all had the stories about his contracts as well I know some of it's been debunked but did everyone go in for new contracts like thinking the best he was
[01:05:17] always good as gold with me I'd never have a bad word to should he be putting that contract in front of me at that moment in time probably not but he knew and I'm not saying it was all me but he
[01:05:47] had a belief that that contract would keep and it worked do you feel at that point as well the standard I always remember Morrow ringing me when he announced he said I know what you're like what you've got to remember is some players want to do it but they can't do it what do you mean you got to trust me on this and I understand what he said there's players on
[01:06:33] better sides you'll have lower down the divisions but yeah I still think I look back on it it cost me my marriage I'm not going to lie but for me it was brilliant that mum is unreal I've had an upgrade halfway through my life it's class so from that point of view but as a football decision to go and sign for Plymouth honestly I think it's brilliant they phoned you signing for Yeovil just to say what on earth you doing signing for Yeovil I'd signed for
[01:07:03] Yeovil for a month you know what I intention I did coaching badges I did B licence A licence while still playing so from
[01:07:33] that point of view did I have an idea that I everybody says that I think you've got to know what your skill set is I'm not a coach
[01:08:03] I'm not going to be on the that so from that point of view it's really good I do coach I am on the pitch most days
[01:08:33] but you've got a really good coach at a minute blocks he's an exceptional young coach so why would you stop somebody else's skill set and I if we've got an under 16 that we think has got half a chance planning these pathways over the next year where
[01:09:03] do we see them in two years and just planning that pathway and putting round pegs in round holes to make sure we get them through it's a card it that is giving youth a chance and he's crowding those pathways isn't it it's not always the case there's no day now
[01:09:33] brilliant so just a bit of a quick fire then just to kind of finish it off best player you've ever played with Christophe Dugari didn't get on with him at all I remember ever in home we beat ever in 3-1 here and me and him just about two minutes to go he he didn't track a runner so we were screaming at each other and he was giving me shit about winning the world cup and all but I I've got a thing about Christophe and everybody
[01:10:03] loves him at Blues the first six months he was exceptional he was humbling once he signed his two year deal he wasn't the player he was we all tend to shout out that second season because it didn't go the way anyone wanted to
[01:10:42] everybody else with different people but I remember calling him out and we had fisticuffs in the tunnel all kicked off but I just don't and it comes back to calling people out if I had done that Sheffield Wednesday I think we might have had a better group because I
[01:11:12] I think he down tools that's the honesty you need sometimes I just love the thought that you're screaming out to track back
[01:11:42] that I come on the world cup but it's like there's no comeback he's won the world cup but on the other angle I went to Euro Disney with the kids looked after me unbelievable he knew the owner of the manager of Euro Disney mate I
[01:12:12] pay for anything an upgraded suite overlooking the whole of the park it was unreal so say we didn't get on he looked after me that's what you
[01:12:42] when you go on the pitch like you say you ready for war come on everyone needs to be on my level and if some people aren't they're going to get the sharp end I
[01:13:12] you had to go and play to win and that was your personality there off the pitch be as nice as you
[01:13:43] be personal if somebody shout your name say hello if they're a 50 year old bloke but if it's a young kid just look after them kids will remember that forever and you more personal
[01:14:13] with him I haven't yeah because 20 years later someone that might be on this and saying it was so and
[01:14:43] is it going to matter to you as a player take your headphones off for two minutes sign a few autographs say hello to a few people and they go away happy it hasn't cost you anything it's cost you two minutes of your time and do that and yeah things like that they don't sit right with me and I'm hoping as I go on in my career and I'm hoping that I can integrate that into the players a little bit so I may take it on board but I don't know best player you've ever played against
[01:15:14] nightmare I'd say on the day that I played against them Zola at Chelsea but then I've been lucky enough especially Van Nistelrooy Omri I mean Drogba I remember playing against Gajonsson and Zola at Chelsea at Stamford Bridge and it was the first time usually every used to be 4-4-2 didn't it he was the first player to play in that pocket and yeah we can't get near him mate and it was like yeah just he was unreal
[01:15:44] we're 3-0 down I think it was West Brom at the time 3-0 down after 20 minutes can't get anywhere near him and so on the day that I played against him Zola but Omri would be up there you know family store all class players who was the who was the biggest shithouse Mark because we talked mate it was with Paul Robinson the other day I remember saying seeing Shearer down there seeing him didn't Shearer give you a little bit that down there the one game Shearer a little bit and then not clever shithouse really give you the give you the knock off of the ball
[01:16:13] but I remember Shearer did me at Newcastle away did me and then I've gone to do him back and I end up elbowing Ricky Schimacher rather than him and give Ricky Schimacher three stitches and still getting sent off so yeah so he did me a little bit he's gone twice in two weeks I don't know mentions Schimacher he assisted Robinson for his goal against Villa as well yeah good one of the nicest blokes you'll ever meet in football as well around the black eye
[01:16:42] how's that stitch Rick yeah when he signed we were like best mates travelling together for a few years we were really close but yeah good top player top lad as well so yeah but I've never seen that with Shearer Hartson was probably a tough little fucker he did me down here on the halfway line when he was off the ball nose was like that fucking looking over me while I was on the floor wiped on you know what I mean but that's part of
[01:17:11] it was the game back in the day yeah I was going to say that's gone now as well isn't it there's no you can't do it because there's too many cameras everywhere but then it's not on the things but quick opinion on the performative nature of like a Gabriel at Arsenal who is the victor I've never seen a centre half be the victim so much and it works because he gets the decisions he's played make the best of what you can people call it cheating at times and stuff like that make the best of what you can when people talk about people going down in the box and all that sort of stuff
[01:17:41] you're trying to win a football match you know what I mean so by hook or by crook you've got to do it if you feel that in your back you know forwards behind it you're going down you feel that little movement do you know I hate it I hate diving I hate people play acting stuff like that but if you feel so if there's contact and you go down then the referee's got a decision to make if there's no contact you go down proper shithousery fuck off do you know what I mean but if there's contact and you go down you are trying to win a football match you know so if the keeper
[01:18:11] comes out and slides and touches and you go down what are you supposed to do if the keeper comes out and it doesn't touch you and you go down then fuck off you get in the bin you know and that's how I see it like I say everyone's trying to win a football match you know you have to win by hook or by crook best manager Dennis Smith Oxford Smith did another one not a coach
[01:18:40] Malcolm Crosby did all the coaching but I look at what he did with that group of players are they a better manager have better careers definitely you know I've worked under Bruce he was really good at what he did you know man management and looking after players of his class but I just think Dennis for what he did at Oxford at that time was really good good fellow as well favourite blue centre half you'd have loved to have played alongside past or present so obviously it's you and Kenny
[01:19:10] I love playing with Jono Jono yeah I probably out of me 200 and odd games I probably played 150 of them alongside Jono and I think we complemented each other really well he was quick weren't the biggest but could read the game quite well I was a little bit more aggressive wanted to go and win the ball when I fucked up he'd cover around for me when he fucked up I'd get sent off what do you remember of the game with Fulham when Jeff come down there all arms and elbows
[01:19:39] got sent off didn't he down here was that the game Stan Collinmore played as well yeah I think he mentions it in his autobiography as we were walking off half time I was sparing him a bit what do you say about trying to win the game that was him trying to make him go off his game trying to make him want a bloody punch in the face that's what you did back in the day trying to tread on people's feet all that sort of stuff it was part of the game
[01:20:08] and you learn it from an early age Saved down here with Dion yeah wind him up head butt get sent off down to ten men job done go and win the game so they're the dark hearts that you need to learn there's fine lines between it you can call it cheating there's fine lines between it you just wanted to try and get the best possible result for the club that you're playing for and every time I cross a white line with blue that's all I ever wanted to do go and win three points go and be the best person or the best
[01:20:38] player you could be and it's not where you're high on your sleeve and play for the badge a common thing that's been said from the players is that majority of the time the game was won in that tunnel because you were back in the day like the first Villa game here yeah there was no team talks or anything we were quite I'd say quite calm calm but aggressive you know when we was in the tunnel with the Melberg and what he said about don't know who the players are it's easy we'll go and show you
[01:21:07] what we're about but we had that mentality where we'd do that you know nobody would step over the line we was there and that first game they was nowhere near us you know call it a throwing goal whatever you want to call it but even if without that we'd have won the game because we were just we were battling them we wanted it more than them and I think that's the biggest thing you could say is we wanted it more than most teams when we played against them back in the day and yeah it's still a part of the game I think you need
[01:21:37] you need to want it yeah that was a beautiful era you see where Villa are now and we're absolutely nowhere near them now are we that was at that time that's the only time in our era that we've been beyond them competing for me I look back on that we talk about the Plymouth time I think I played in six Villa Blues derbies and never lost one for me I look back at that as a stand I think fair play I'm happy with that to win local derbies and not get beaten local derbies
[01:22:07] was class when we 2-0 down away from home and Stern scores the equaliser that felt like a win yeah you know what I mean what a moment that stands out for me it felt like a win and for me at that moment in time to not get beaten in games and I look back at the time with Brucey and stuff like that I think he probably over the four years in the Premier League or three years in the Premier League that time I think I would have played in every single Premier League every single derby I think he probably maybe see something in
[01:22:37] me for the derby games rather than not I mean I need him there I need him in that game as a fan we'd be like yeah so for me to play in them games and be picked in them games I think he probably thought that I remember going to Crystal Palace and I weren't in the squad and I remember Brucey saying to me he said Percy I'm not putting you in the squad he said but I want you to travel I was like come on I don't need to travel he went no I need you because he which was
[01:23:07] class I think he stood about a lot for what I was about as a player even though he'd left me out of the squad I felt he had a little bit of respect for me at that moment in time and he just stood beside me in case it kicks off I'll look after you I'll see him actually go and take the village up and obviously McLeish was the big one but even Brucey going over not overly
[01:23:37] if I was lucky enough to get off the village job would I take it probably I'm a Millwall fan would I take the West Ham job with a car for me probably but that's the personal and that's the not is there another job you don't know what
[01:24:06] financially people can do it I might have to take that job because if not I'm going
[01:25:34] he stood up touch him on the shoulder you leave him alone he's Millwall I had to the bloke my dad knows I'm a millwall fan told it shut the fuck up and leave me
[01:26:04] with an opportunity to get promoted to the Premier League I don't think you would have been some mad mixing you you've got it as a player but he I said he always wanted me to do well he followed me everywhere and I used to love it little things like you remember he would ring me on the Monday and he would I don't know if I can get down we were playing Newcastle all on a Tuesday night I lived in London and I said don't worry about it it's fine you can't go every
[01:26:34] game and midday on a Tuesday I'll leave me a ticket I'm on my way up I brilliant that's class so looking back on 25 years plus what achievement are you most proud of not particularly blues but just what
[01:27:03] stands out as your biggest I I don't know was I the most professional of footballers I look at the boys nowadays they're probably in the gym every day I
[01:27:33] wasn't a real gym person I think my mentality got me through most of what I I thought about it but I don't know so that would
[01:28:03] probably be the one thing I would say but I there's not too many better sets of fans you know what mean and from my history and being here and watching the club I think
[01:28:33] your class just keep back in the club and hopefully it goes to bigger and better things I think the club is in good hands at the minute with the owners it got got some big aspirations but don't lose the nucleus of what the club is it's a working man's football club that needs that at the heart of it with everything else that's going on but they're top set of