[00:00:00] One season down, I could see it in the season before, I thought, oh, you know, this is, we stayed in the premiership only just about and then it just started to slide and yeah, and you can't do enough once that slip starts, you try and get out of it.
[00:00:14] So, you know, some couple of seasons where we finished seventh, we would always take us, just after Christmas, he'd take us to Mockham Hall for a week on the piss, right, and they'd be like, and I'd be like, we don't need to go for a week on the piss, no, we need to just, because we are, I think one year we're like third in the premiership and went to Mockham Hall and we'd never won a game once we got back there, we'd be on a piss, so we would never won a game the rest of the season and we finished seventh, I'm thinking, well, if he hadn't been on the piss, we'd have,
[00:00:44] this is where we finished seventh because, yeah, so it looks absolutely great, but I'm pretty sure we could have finished higher than that, and they could have, you know, the club could have put me on the contract, and the manager, they could have just said, we've put them on a contract, just let them train me, yeah, I would have been in, I'd have forced my way into the team, wouldn't have been an issue, the manager, you know, I'm pretty sure, yeah, we'll stick him in, he's good enough, he's doing better than what we've got, and yeah, just, so I kind of blame the club a bit, yeah, the manager's just doing his,
[00:01:13] he wanted to bring his player in, yes, you know, he brought, no disrespect to foreigners, but they brought him in, and championships are bloody tough players to play, and they just couldn't, they just couldn't cut the, you know, cut the mustard, so to speak. Playing in the premiership, who doesn't want to, for me, it's the best league in the world, I've played against some of the best players, again, in the best era, yeah, Yeah, Rube Van Nistelrooy, Robin Van Persie, Dennis Burke, I played against these players, I played, when I was 18, I played against Eric Cantor,
[00:01:42] and I thought, what's going on here, I just literally signed for Cambridge, well, I've been a year at Cambridge, it's my second season, and they had a pre-season against Man United, all those players, Brian McClure, Mark Hughes, like, Eric Cantor, and I'm thinking, this is pretty weird, this is, I'm like, just 19, a year ago, I was doing my A-levels at, down in Bournemouth, and here I am playing, it's Eric Cantor, and there's my mum having a photo with me.
[00:02:08] Yeah, that was a bit of a shock, and that took, took a while to get over, but as a player, I'm not a player, just to sit at home, and I just can't sit there, and just be sad, I just couldn't do it, I went back training after a week, whether it was the right thing or wrong thing, I went and did it, I needed to just go back to training, I went back to training after a week, and it was, like, great for me. My wife came and, and just training ground every day.
[00:02:41] Have a minute, mate. Yeah, and, yeah, and everyone just stopped by me, and, yeah, I think my first game back was against Cambridge United, or only, so. Before we get into this, we're doing over a million engagements a month, but most of you aren't subscribed. If you enjoy the content, hit subscribe and follow us on socials, it'll make such a massive difference. Cheers. Morning, Jodie, how are you? Very good, thank you. Good to be here. We're rolling, we're all ready to go. We're down here at St Andrews.
[00:03:11] We had a chat when you come in. You haven't been down there since you've played. What are your memories of her? Yeah, a few years ago. So, I don't, you know, I've had about two million footballs, I actually don't remember a lot. But I did score here. I think that's probably, you know, that stands out because I scored. I think it was a 1-1. You know, I think we scraped that. It was kind of my last memory of being here. And, yeah, it was a good memory because I don't score many times as a centre-half.
[00:03:40] So, yeah, to score was great. And we got a result. It kind of, like I said, did we deserve it? I don't know. But we got it. So, it was a bit of a kind of a few-moment love. Yeah, we got away with that one. Do you remember the atmosphere down here? Yeah. Steve has been on and said it was horrible, but he loved it because he excelled in it. It's meant to be one of the worst grains for it's kind of come and play out. It was all right. We spoke before.
[00:04:08] I said, like, Wolves West Brum is, you know, pretty hostile. Never. Yes, it's quite spicy out there, but it was never a Wolves West Brum. Just like it was never, wouldn't be a Blues Villa. So, you know, it was, yes, it's a bit spicy, but it's not too bad. But the first time I ever came to this ground, I must have been about eight years old, and we came with, I think it was the school brought us to work, to watch Blues versus Millwall. Brilliant.
[00:04:34] And I don't know if you will remember when the game got cancelled and everyone was chucking seats on the pitch. That's a good school. That was my first degree of coming to the stadium. Why? It was absolutely, I think my mate was about eight, nine years old. He got punched in the face. Punched in the face. It was brutal. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why he'd become a Blues fan. Yeah. He just got the school and just done theatre trips after that. Yeah. Yeah. It was Shakespeare forever more after that.
[00:05:03] What football synergy sport, Kramer? It was, I supported Liverpool growing up. It was either Liverpool, Man United, and that was it. So my mate supported Man United. So I supported Liverpool. Simple as that. Oh. Fair enough. Can't argue that. So 750 professional appearances. We were talking about your goals before. He said you didn't score many. 27 goals. Season in the Prem with Wolves. I think you had five, didn't you? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Scored a few.
[00:05:33] How did football start for you? I started later. I started at 18. I tried to, I wanted to be a footballer. Who doesn't want to be a footballer? That's your dream as a kid. So I wanted to be a footballer. But I wasn't good enough until I started to kind of develop a bit more. So at the age of 17, I was playing men's football. I played Saturday afternoon for a team called Christchurch in the Duce and Wessex League. And I was a bit of a semi-pro.
[00:06:01] So, you know, I started to kind of play with, you know, men's football, which brought my game on. I played pub football Sunday morning and under 18s on a Sunday afternoon. I'd gone for trials at Bournemouth. Tony Pudis was there. And they spotted me and said, right, come and have a few games. Not with the first thing, but to see if I'd get into the academy. So this was literally just before Christchurch. Yeah. And I did all right. And I played a couple of games for the academy.
[00:06:30] And they said, right, we'll sign you on. And I said, okay, let me just finish my A-levels. I've got my A-levels to finish. I've already been doing my A-levels for a year. I didn't want to just chuck that all in because I didn't particularly think I was good enough to be a footballer. So I thought, right, I do need to get my A-levels just in case. And they said, okay, great. Just give us a ring as soon as you're finished. And we'll get you down here for the rest of the kind of academy course. And I rang them up. And they're like, who? And I'm like, okay, well, okay. So they kind of forgot about me. And, yeah.
[00:06:59] So then I just carried on playing my local teams. And like I said, the three games at the weekend. And I think I just have some... The word gets around you. Young lad playing centre half. It kind of stands out a little bit more just because you don't get that many younger lads playing in that position. So, yeah. A few scouts came down. And Cambridge was the one that, you know, took the punt and ran it up and said, come on, have a try. So what was Cambridge like? Good. Loved it. Young lad. Kind of new world.
[00:07:29] Lovely part of the world. Yeah. Beautiful part of the world. So, yeah. We met some great lads there. We just felt like being at school with your mates but playing football and not having to do any homework. And not having to do anything but just being with your mates. And that's what it felt like. It was brilliant. I absolutely loved it. It wasn't about money because I was on absolute pennies and couldn't afford a thing. It was just about loving football and playing it. And, yeah. I've just turned up every day and think, well.
[00:07:57] And then that other day off on the Wednesday, I think, well, why haven't a day off? Why haven't a day off for? You know. And I think, I don't deserve a day off. I've done anything. So, I just go and kick the ball against the wall at the back of the stadium for hours on end. Just do that. I just loved it. So, yeah. Cambridge was great. Got some great mates there. Yeah. And they brought me on. Kerry Johnson took me there. Brought my game on. I went out and learned on the first season to Woking, which was great. Yeah. And I just slowly worked my way into the team. And, yeah.
[00:08:25] I think I've become the captain by the time my fourth year came around. And, yeah. Moved on from there. When did you start actually feeling, okay. Yeah. I'm going to make it. Because even then you just said at Cambridge, you were like, oh, they deserve it. I just think even when I went to Sunday and did another course. I did a course in fitness. I did a course of fitness and nutrition at Cambridge. And I did another one of sports psychology courses. And I did my coaching badges. I only did my B license. I don't know. I just always thought, oh, just, just, I just, I don't know.
[00:08:56] This could just fall apart in a second. I've seen it fall apart in seconds for players with injuries and not being good enough and just slipping out of the game. So, I just thought, oh, I just need to get, at least do some, use the PFA. They would fund the courses for me. So, I just think, right. I just use that to my advantage. And whilst I've got that time on the coach or after training, I just, yeah, I just do a course and get it under my bowels. It's super sensible for being that age. Yeah, it is. From block parentage when you were younger, they'd get a try or get a proper job and make
[00:09:25] sure you got something in support. No, not particularly. My parents were just happy for me to do whatever I wanted to do. So, it's just kind of, they weren't sports inclined whatsoever. So, how the hell I become a footballer, I just do not know. I just think it was, it was a different, you know, it was just a different scenario then, wasn't it? We didn't have computers. We didn't have phones. If I had a computer, I'd have been a footballer. I'd have been, I'd have been, I'd have had nothing probably. But, yeah, so I'd just be having my mates all day, every day, just with the football
[00:09:52] or American football or cricket ball, you know, just doing sports every single day. And this went on for, yeah, I did this until I literally signed for Cambridge. I'd, even at 16, 17, I'd go and play squash or badminton, just doing something all the time because there's nothing else to do. So, it was sports. So, you kind of then, you know, I can play basketball, I can play tennis, I can play sport. I can kind of do, you know, do it all. I enjoy it all. It reminds me of when we had John McCarthy on there and he was, he was of a similar
[00:10:21] mindset, wasn't he? That he was mindful that he needed to get this education and stuff. And the similar thing really, he had kind of what he called imposter syndrome where he thought, what am I doing? Why are they, what are they seeing? And so, but I think that's important now. And it's being kind of rammed home to the kids now to be that way because it's easier to not be that way these days. It's really hard for them because it's like bright lights and money and it's like, wow, I don't need to do anything.
[00:10:51] Now I'm going to be a footballer and 10 years or 20 years is so far away. I don't need to worry about it. And it just can, well, 20 years, I might have had a 20 year career, which is players don't, you know, not many players reach a 20 year career. So, you know, it falls, you need something to back it up. And, you know, if you've got a wise head on you, then it's sensible to do that. But I do understand the flip side of the coin. There's a lot more money now, isn't there? At the youth end of the year.
[00:11:21] Especially around the Premier League. Yeah, it's crazy. I was at Cambridge. I was on 10 years. I was on about six. Started off after my digs came out of my wages. I was on about 60 quid a week. And it was like, I'm ringing the missus. I'm 50. Money's about to run out. I've got 50 people left in my mind. You know, I was doing that for years. So. And was it kind of the YTS mold that you've got to go and do jobs and you've got to do. Well, no, because I didn't. I was 18, wasn't I? So I didn't do the YTS. So I saw you just as first year pro.
[00:11:50] But they were doing, you know, they were. So some of those YTs are just doing their second year YTs. I came good friends with. So, and they were still doing those roles. So sweet. Not changing rooms. They'd go and clean up the stadium after a game. And it was great. And then they'd clean boots. And they needed to do that. And, you know, everything's wrapped in cotton wool now. They don't do anything. So, which is a shame because, you know, come Christmas, we give them a tip. You know, that's how it works.
[00:12:15] And, you know, the bigger the player, the bigger your tip you get, isn't it? So, you know, which I thought was really good for the kids. It gave them an understanding of, you know, it's not just turn up and play foot. We've got a little bit of responsibility and they understand the process. But that's all. And being in and around you guys, it comes across as it was super important at the time. Whereas now there's complexes for the 21s. There's a complex for the 18s. And everyone's kind of a wife in each other. Then you're rubbing shoulders and you're...
[00:12:45] Yeah. You think, what a shape. So then it makes it easier for them when they make that ton of decision of kind of academy or first year bro to come and train with the first team, you know, or the main squad. It's bridged that gap because you've been speaking to them all season because they've been cleaning your boots or, you know, they're just in and around the place, which is really good. But yes, I don't think you... There isn't that anymore, is there? There's no kind of, you know, they don't work together and it's kind of gets separate.
[00:13:13] So then when they do step into that role of having to train with the first team, then it's like, wow. A huge gulf. It's a lot of punishment as well, isn't it? For recouping all players that have fallen out of five first and to try and be the under-21s as well. Yeah. So where that should be something that's a massive, like, lift for the kids. It's kind of... They're going down, I've got to try and be the under-21s. It's always like you're falling out of the manager trying with the 21s, isn't it? Yeah. We had never had 21s when we... You know, when I played. Just reserves. Kind of... Yeah, reserves, which I thought was brilliant.
[00:13:43] I don't understand the concept of a 21s team. I think if I'm 21 and I end knocking on door in that first team, then this club end for me, I need to be at a club where I'm, you know... So at that age, I need to be in the first team, not playing under-21s, which... Unless you're 18, playing under-21s is completely different there. If I'm 21, playing under-21s, then I'm at the wrong place. Yeah. So the reserves, I thought, was brilliant because you'd have players, experienced players. Well, we played against Liverpool.
[00:14:12] I'm sure Stephen Gerrard came back from an injury. So it gave players, which were young lads, which play in a reserve team, that opportunity to play against such a massive player like that and to play alongside kind of more experienced pros from our team, which helped their game. But, you know, that's hard. I think the reason now, personally, is because the loan, the way of loans is so expensive and you can make a lot of money from the loans, can't you?
[00:14:42] So if you've got these kids then, under-21s then, and you want to loan them out, it's monopolising. Chelsea done it, didn't they? And Liverpool do it. And I think it's more of a farming exercise for the kids than trying to get them into the first team. And I needed to play. If I got an injury, I needed to play in the reserves, like, for three or four games to get back up to speed. I could not just go straight back into the first team. Expect to be the same as I was just four great injured. I needed to catch up with the speed of the game.
[00:15:10] So it took two or three games, me personally. So, you know, I can't imagine I'm the only person that was like that. So, yeah, the reserves was brilliant. You know, we were up at Sunderland. It was like a premiership reserve team, a premiership league of reserves. And, you know, we're playing Liverpool, Man United. We play Man United at Sunderland to win that reserve league. And there was like 15,000 fans at the game. It's like absolutely brilliant. And, you know, that's how good it was. So tell us then how you moved to Sunderland, Canberbank.
[00:15:40] Yeah, it was four years at Cambridge. I just stepped. I just progressed. I think I became the captain. Yeah, and that was it. I think I went back on the, might be just the pre-season of my fifth season. And they were like, oh, Sunderland, I want you to go up and have a trial. I went up at a trial for two weeks. And then I went back to Cambridge to train as usual and carry on. And then I got a phone call saying, yeah, they're going to sign you. And what was kind of the time between going up and then just kind of on the spot?
[00:16:11] Literally about a week. A week. And then that was it. They had a pre-season friendly. Cambridge did. I thought, right, I'll sit and watch this. And I literally half-time jumped in my car and drove up to Sunderland and never turned back. It was a bit crazy, really. Because I went up to Sunderland in my room with Vandenpla. Was it Peter Reid that signed you? Yeah, Peter Reid, yeah. What's he like? He's always coming across the black. Exactly as you think he is. So, you know, he gave him an opportunity. He was brilliant. It was him and Bobby Saxton. Yeah.
[00:16:38] So Bobby Saxton would do all the kind of talking. He'd be there. Hand on your shoulder and Peter Reid would be there. You know. To be honest. Yeah, exactly. So, but fantastic. And they, you know, had some great times up there. And yeah, we did. We had some, you know, finished twice in the premiership. Yeah, because that was a promotion of 105 points. Yeah. Makes boxes. Lou got lauded for 111 last year, didn't they? Which was lead one. Doesn't really. I mean, so I don't really see how it's comparable to the championship or anything like that.
[00:17:09] 105s. That was. And the football he played as well. Those are good players. Yeah. You know, people say, oh, who's the best player he played with? And it wasn't a player. It was two players. It was Kev Phillips and Nard Quinn. Yeah, they were phenomenal up there. Yeah. Quinn is so good. It's ridiculous. You know, he's. You see, Kyle, he's just a big lad that heads the ball. But his touch was phenomenal. Everything about him and then Kev. Well, Kev on the golden boots and everything he touched literally went in the back of the net.
[00:17:37] And Quinn would be like, right, this is where I'll put the ball for you. Just score. And they didn't. They were. You know, you don't get that now. Like a partnership, which works so well. And their partnership was phenomenal. So, you know, it was a privilege to be in that team. And someday, you know, when we were like flying high in the premiership, I was just, I literally sit at the back going, oh, this is so easy. I don't know. But I'm right. I'm just going to win my headers, win my tackles. There you go. There you go. Alex Ray. Kevin Ball. There's Avit. You go and play football. And I'll just. Kevin Ball in supply as well. Oh, it's hard as now.
[00:18:07] Every team needs a Kevin Ball. But we had a Kevin Ball and an Alex Ray. And Alex Ray was hard as now as well. So both of them in the same team was. Yeah. And that's why we did so well. So just absolute. Well, Quinn and Phillips, it's then emulated, wasn't it, throughout the years then? It was the mould, wasn't it? It was the mould of which to laugh. I think you were over on second for every team at that point as well. So it was. It was attractive football, wasn't it? And you were like the good guys of obviously going up then.
[00:18:36] You were upsetting people, weren't you, in that Premier League season? Yeah, it was good. We were doing really well. And, you know, some couple of them seasons where we finished seventh, Pete would always take us, just after Christmas, he'd take us to Mockham Hall for a week on the piss, right? And he'd be like. And I'd be like, we don't need to go for a week on the piss. No, we need to just. Because we are. I think one year we're like third in the Premiership and went to Mockham Hall. And we'd never won a game once we got back there. We'd be on a piss.
[00:19:05] So we'd never won a game the rest of the season. And we finished seventh. I'm thinking, well, if he hadn't been on a pitch, we'd have. Or this is why we finished seventh. Yeah. So it looks absolutely great. But I'm pretty sure we could have finished higher than that. Or won the Prem. Yeah. It's completely changed now. That wouldn't happen anymore. Who were the characters in that side? Who were the. So Alex Ray, obviously. Yeah, Alex Ray. I bet a couple of them boys could see you. They liked the Guinness. Quinny loved the Guinness. Yeah.
[00:19:35] Kev Phillips, obviously. Then you'd have. Who would we have? Nicky Summerby. You know, he was. I think he was quality. Nicky Gregg. Chris Makin. Who do I play at the back alongside? Dal Daz Williams. Who was a younger lad. So he was quality. Tommy Sorensen in goal. So yeah, we had a good set up. Good bunch of lads. Yeah. We was talking about this the other day to someone that Mickey Gray, every time you mention Mickey Gray, and he says it on tour sport, doesn't he? It's that penalty, isn't it? Yeah. It's mad how things stick.
[00:20:04] I'm not even a Sunderland fan or I've not got any affinity, but it's just moments that stick out for you throughout life, isn't it? Yeah. And he says he's had to live with that, hasn't he, forever. But in the grand scheme of things, it didn't really mad, did it? It didn't. No, it didn't. And I think maybe, I always think back, I think, I don't think we were quite ready anyway to go into the premiership. So maybe it would have been a blessing in disguise because the following year we absolutely stormed the league and then we went up and did pretty well in the premiership. So yeah, we probably weren't quite ready.
[00:20:34] So yeah. Because that's what happened with Derby, weren't it? The year when they set that record, Billy Dives, it's a victory with their own success because they shouldn't have really gone up. Yeah. And they did and they were not equipped for it at all. And now they carry that. Yeah. That red gold, don't they? Yeah. That's horrible Monica. Yeah. Yeah. So we also only just avoid it. So how did the move then to Wolves come about from? Tenuous link. I like that. Did you like that? I like it, yeah. Yeah. How did it come about? Yeah. Well, we were... Did you go out on loan when you were at Sunderland?
[00:21:04] Yes. I went to Sheffield United on loan. Yeah. You popped out on loan. Yeah. I went for... Did you know then that it was, you weren't in and around or what was the feeling? I was only a young boy. So I was only maybe my six years at Sunderland. So I could have been my second season. So I was only a young lad. So I wasn't expecting to be in the first team. So to go out on loan, I'd obviously played in that reserve team and it was Adrian Heath that ran the team. And he obviously really liked me as a player. So and he would then went and manage Sheffield United.
[00:21:32] So he was like, right, come on, get me there. And yeah, I had a month and then Stan Vargo was centre-half, got injured at the Wolves. And then I came in and that was it. I played like four years after that and I'd never turned back and that was it. That was just like sliding doors, mate. That was my point. It's just like, what could happen there? Yeah. Yeah. So that's how. So when did you get the call about Wolves?
[00:21:57] Well, so Wolves, we were on the, well, Sunderland got, we were getting relegated and Mick McCarfer came in like a couple of months just for the end of the season. Yeah. And it's the same with every premiership team. They have to get rid of a few players. I don't know why. It wasn't like I was a player on loads of money at all. Because that wasn't, wasn't the case. But obviously your Quinn, your Quinn is like, Kip Phillips would have been, you know, better paid than I was. So it wasn't like they were getting me off the bus because I was out of money.
[00:22:26] I just think they were, you know, someone's come in and they wanted a player. Would you have, would you have just kind of got your head down and played again in the championship and gone again? Love Sunderland. You're not allowed to have. I was never thinking, right, we need to get away from here. But Wolves knocked on the door. So I'm thinking, right, okay, this is an opportunity to stay in the premiership, which, you know, makes perfect sense as a player. And also less than an hour from my house. Yeah, exactly. And it's a bit of a circle. So, yeah, I had family in the Midlands. So, you know, it kind of made sense.
[00:22:56] But I've always said I'd happily stayed at Sunderland for the rest of my career. It was never an issue. I wasn't a player that I was always looking for a move and wanting to go. Yeah, that's why I've only ever had three clubs in my whole career. So for me to stay there would have been absolutely fine. I would have loved it there. I did love it there and I would have happily stayed there. But then to move on and, you know, it was a bit of a circle, come back down to the Midlands and stay in the premiership because that's where you want to play. Yeah, that's where you want to play.
[00:23:26] So even before we go to Wolves then, with all the success that you had and then all of a sudden that success starts everywhere and you see the form kind of over time, you're starting to look down rather than up. How does that, what's the reasoning for that at that time with Sunderland, do you think? What was the catalyst to...? Yeah, it's always a tough one. It's just something doesn't click. A couple of different... Peter Reid got the sack. Different players come in. It didn't quite work, you know, and it's not, you know, nothing against them.
[00:23:55] They just, if they get brought in, they don't work. It doesn't work. It's as simple as that. So then the thing that gets pointed at Peter Reid for, you know, you've brought in, say, Nicholas Medina, you pay seven million for him and yet he's hardly even played, you know, spent any time on the pitch. And Quinny got an injury, so he was difficult to replace. So then you kind of lose that partnership with... Yeah, it's a very unique wife. If you take one of those, Cogs are... Yeah, so it just, you know, it just, I don't know, it was like a gradual slide. So it wasn't like one season down.
[00:24:24] It was like, oh, I could see it in the season before. I thought, oh, you know, this is... We stayed in the premiership only just about and then it just started to slide. And, yeah, and you can't do enough once that slip starts. It's you're trying to get out of it. So you tend to have on that, don't you? Like with West Ham now, it's not a shock thing, is it? That, oh, no, it's a bad season. It is. You see it happens. There's a pattern, isn't there? Yeah, gradually. It's what it aims to be once you kind of hit that funk over a couple of seasons. It's only going to end up.
[00:24:55] Yeah, exactly. And it's about, you know, it's tough for a manager because you've got to find some gems. And, you know, he brought in, Peter Reader brought in Julio Arca and he was a gem. He was quality. And, you know, so then he's, you know, you're looking for the next Julio Arca as well. So he brings in Nicholas Medina and he, you know, unfortunately he wasn't the next Julio Arca. So, you know, sitting and chasing somebody else and looking for another player, you know. But he already suggests that is the player we need and then it just doesn't work out. And then he brings in like a Milton Nunes who didn't work.
[00:25:24] And, you know, every time you shoot and miss, it becomes another kind of, you know, thorn massage, doesn't it? Yeah. So then you start to slip. But if you can find a gem, like me McCarthy did at the Wolves, you'd find gems like Michael Keitley and Matt Jarvis and, you know, Andy Keir. You find these gems and they all gel together. You end up being phenomenal. Yeah. Yeah. It happens to, I mean, going back, it happened to Cov and Southampton teams like that,
[00:25:51] that they're constantly just missing the cut, aren't they? Yeah. And then the players must just think, well, here we go again kind of thing. And yeah, I think it's immense. It's not even a mentality thing, is it? Sometimes you just have to, like you say, one player can turn it. Like you just mentioned, like Jarvis and Keitley were just like amazing, weren't they? Yeah. And he brought, and we got Sylvan Ebanks-Blake as well. He signed up from Charlton. And, you know, people say, who's the best player you play with at Wolves?
[00:26:19] And I'm like, wow, this is, it was Sylvan and it was for one season. And it was that season we got promoted into the championship. He was absolutely phenomenal. He may score a few against, I think he used to love net. If he could have done that his whole career, he'd have been like unbelievable, where he did it for, you know, one season at the Wolves and he was phenomenal. And he, you know, he picked up a couple of injuries after that and really struggled to kind of get back to that form. But, yeah. So, and he was another absolute champ that... He was a hammer-fuller as well, wasn't he? Yeah, he was. So who was it that signed you for Wolves?
[00:26:50] Dave Jones signed me at Wolves. So, yeah, just, I was, I knew they were interested and I was waiting on the, they played Sheffield United in the playoff final. I was just waiting on the result of that. If they got promoted, then yes, they'd be signed to me. And if they didn't get promoted, obviously, they wouldn't be signed to me. So, yeah, I was watching that one on telly with a great interest. That carried a bit of interest for you, didn't it? So, yeah, they got promoted and assigned. Simple as that. So, yeah. And then I had 10 years at the Wolves. And then, you said, Mick was back in. Mick came back in, yeah.
[00:27:19] Oh, Jodes. Yes. What's Mick McCarthy like as the manager? Great. I've always said he's my, you know, no disrespect to any other manager. I've been there. They've all been great. But Mick was, you know, he'd been in St. Ralph. He kind of understood me. He was, yeah, helped my game. And I think a lot of, a few players have said that about Mick. That's, you know, he's been their favourite player to be coached by. You watched that film yet? No. I don't know if to or not. I don't know if it'll be a translation. I haven't watched it. I love you. I don't know.
[00:27:48] I probably won't. But... I can imagine that them two as characters, it's just... To be fair, I saw one of his, he's clipped from one of his after, after the, like, sporting dinner speeches. Where he said, just look at it. The size difference is completely wrong between the two actors. So that doesn't look in any way. It doesn't represent Roy Keane to me. But it must be a weird thing to kind of have something come out like that without any kind of input from you. But it's about you. Oh, did he even, didn't even have any input? Oh, I thought you, oh, there you go.
[00:28:17] See, I won't watch it because I don't know the ins and outs of what actually happened. So then if I go and watch that film, then I'll be thinking, well, that's what happened. And that's not, you know, it probably isn't what happens. No, no. So no, I won't be watching it. No. Who's the, so championship and prem, you've played against some players. Who's the toughest striker that you've faced or who's that give you a nightmare? Well, so in the prem, there was always, Theron was quality, wasn't he? So.
[00:28:47] I can imagine. How do you even mark him when he's dropping off? Well, he used to play in behind the back fours. We play in that offside position. You have to be really brave and you have to step up because he wants you to keep dropping back and dropping back. So, you know, but you can't, you've got to stay up. And he wants to just, so, you know, he's really telling you he'll run along the line and cut in. So not only is he rapid. You've got to be watertight. You know he's coming back out and then you're in a foot race with him when he's just fine and come back in. So you've got to be really brave and kind of with, and have a good relationship with your partner.
[00:29:17] So you can deal with that. But on the flip side of the corner, I've played here as a lad at Plymouth called Rory Fallon, who was a nightmare to play against. Go down to Plymouth pre-season. It'd be about 35 degrees. This skin doesn't like it, trust me. And then I'd have him just literally wanting to batter me for the whole game. And he always stands out as one of the, like a really tough, awkward centre forward to play against. So that's the flip side. Out of those. Yeah, exactly.
[00:29:47] Yeah, and he just wanted to kick the crap out of me for 90 minutes. But yeah. Ironically, didn't Kev then kind of haunt Wolves with every other club around the Midlands for the next 10 years of his life? Pretty much so, yeah. I think he scored against the Wolves a few times, didn't he? He scored twice, didn't he, for Blues? Yeah. And we turned it around. And I remember Mick McCarthy's interview afterwards where he said, what do you think about Kevin Fears? He said, I'm not going to blow smoke up his arse. We all know he's a good player. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, he had the privilege to play alongside him
[00:30:16] and then he haunted me for the rest of my career. So trying him with him at Sunderland didn't really help. No, he's just a quality player. Planning us in smaller hours, there's always really, you know, when you're playing as a big lad, I was up and I was battling and it was great and I could get, you know, little lad's just... Low centre of brother. Yeah, awkward because they're not hitting him in, hitting the ball up in the air because he ain't going to win the header against me. So they're not going to put it up in the air. So they're going to fire into his feet and it's like a different type of game you have to deal with. So...
[00:30:46] But he could score from anywhere. Yeah, he could. He wasn't just that in the box centrefold, he would smack one in the far side of the box as well. How would you get on nowadays with the whole pass it out from the goal kick, get the touch on it, give it a eye, give it... How was your touch? That's why I worked so hard at Cambridge. It was okay. It kind of got me through my career. It wasn't... Yeah, I wasn't never a... You know, a player. I wasn't ever pinpointing passes for, you know, splitting midfields. But I could do...
[00:31:15] You know, I could do enough just to... You know... I was like a workhorse. I would just like give 110%. I win on my headers, win on my tackles. You know, when I was younger, I was quick. So that kind of really... You know, that went hand in hand. Yeah. So by the time you... End of your... Later half of your career comes around, the pacing matters so much because you're more experienced. So you understood of where to be. You know, when I was younger and I was fast, it didn't matter if I was out of position because I could get back and cover myself. But when you're older,
[00:31:45] you're more experienced. So then it didn't really matter either then. So yeah, I'd just get it out of the back and just... There you go. You give it to the players that can play football, don't you? So it didn't make much difference providing, you know, if you play out from the back, you need midfielders which are really confident, which will pick up the space and come and get the ball. Or you give it to your fullbacks, give it to your midfielders. So yeah. So playing out from the back is easy if you've got the right players in front of you that want the ball. So, you know. It's so frustrating sometimes though for us as fans that you just...
[00:32:14] We went through a stage where obviously it was widely known about the amount of managers we had and the amount of stars we had. But you're asking players who were not them players, weren't they? To bring it out and pass it around. And you can see most of your goals then from goal kicks because you're just losing it in there then on the press and just the hoof. I've seen Man City play a FA Cup game a few years ago. I can't even think who they played. It was a team from a lower division, like a couple of divisions lower.
[00:32:43] And the team were trying to play out from the back with a lump. Is that lump? Into an area. The Sam Allardolius explanation of Baltimore's, it's not a long ball. It's being plied into an area where you can be offensive. Well, wouldn't you put it into a pocket where you've got a quick winger and put the pressure then on their defenders? There's nothing wrong with a long ball if it's put in the right, like I said, put in the right position. Play in the right areas. Yeah. Just a lump up
[00:33:13] to a big centre half is no good because you're going to love that and run it all day. So, yeah. There's more than one wide supply, isn't there? Definitely. It's a balance of, you know, if it needs to go, it goes and, you know, if there's a problem and you talk about it in the changing room or if you can pass and you've got the room to, you know, they've got a team that's pushing you and pressing you and pressing you. It's really difficult then to, you've got to be careful playing out from the back. And again, going back to Queen and Phillips, the ball was, put that ball
[00:33:42] in that area. It was because he won every single header so it was, so are you going to say that's, yeah, that's not the way to play but you absolutely. So we did because it works so well but then we also had Mickey Gray. We had such good kind of fullbacks, you know, left and right midfielders and they'd link up really well so Mickey Gray would link up with, so he would play on the left. So it would be Alan Johnson and those two linked up so well. He was brilliant. He was brilliant. So then you'd have Chris Makin and Nicky Simmovie
[00:34:11] on the right side so, you know, they had such a great partnership that not only could you jump down the wings, yeah. And if we could we go shout out to Quinny Zed that we could just, there you go boys. So we had the alternate as well which was great and then we'd press and press and press when we didn't have the ball and I think that's why we did so well for a couple of years in the premiership is our press was quite good, yeah. So with Wolves, 10 years, so you had a testimonial as well. You were in and out. What,
[00:34:41] reading through your Wikipedia there were times when you were out of the team but then you came back because you were injured weren't you? A couple of times, nothing major though. You broke your foot. Yeah, that was, so that was when we got the promotion season so I started the season broke my foot on the first day of the season just my mattharsal and that kept me out for longer than I wanted to be out and I think I came back in, the team started off great and it just started so I came back in and around like November, October, November time the team were just having a bit of a blip
[00:35:09] and struggling a little bit and which, not great for a team but for me it's trying to get back in when I'm thinking I need to get back in this team. Yeah, I got back in I think then, I don't know, I'll be in an older player it just kind of settled us a bit and we went on and got promoted so, you know, we had a good run from there and promotion was a reward at the end of the season. Any sniff of internationals around when you were? When I was at Sunderland possibly there you had a beat England had a beat didn't they
[00:35:38] and me and Daz Williams were centre half at Sunderland doing well and we had a sniff and I pulled me out literally pulled me out and stringed a week before that and Daz went and played for the B team and that was kind of the closest I got and it never materialized again after that. You were in an era of ridiculous centre half so weren't you as well at the time so I reckon it was super hard to get in but at the time with your form like you say yeah I think I was closed but it's never never had been which is a shame.
[00:36:09] So just one for the see one for the Blues fans while we're sitting down here we talked briefly before about the season we were in a relegation battle we played down here Craig Gardner was sent off for a second booking for diving at the hands of your challenge I tell you yeah go on king this one on you but that season so you started up that season so what was what's kind of the contrast between promotion and relegation kind of survival versus the elation of promotion where's the where do you sit
[00:36:39] what's more promotional survival yeah from the Prem specifically yeah well we stayed in the Prem one year and we played Blackburn the last game of the season yeah this was like it was on the balance we could be last game of the season it was either relegation or staying in the Premiership and we could hear the fans what was going on with the score and all the scores had to go right in the other teams as well so we could hear the chat fans like
[00:37:09] and then we were like 2-0 down at half I think we were 2-0 down at half or something and and then second half we could hear the fans all cheering so whoever was near us or needed to let in a goal or something had let in a goal and so all our fans were buzzing and we were we got back to 2-1 so the goal difference was good for us so we just needed that better goal difference so Blackburn were like without saying if we keep the ball at this end and win the game and you just sit off and let us do it and so it's the most
[00:37:39] surreal thing of every experience in my whole career I just literally stood at that I was 10 minutes I just stood there and Blackburn was passable back and forth for 10 minutes or 5 minutes they fell by 10 minutes but it was probably minutes and yeah they won the game but we stayed in the Premiership and it was like yes a unspoken thing yes it's odd you're just staying in the Premiership but that was like it was a massive thing to just stay in the Premiership and that felt like being winning the championship
[00:38:09] it felt the same the fans were on the pitch it was phenomenal we stayed in the Premiership which was every team's ambition if you're getting promoted that's where you need to stay because that's where the big box is and that's where you dream of the game I suppose you can be like okay let's go again let's do different things next season so yeah a very surreal end to the season but yeah you lose the game but it was we stayed in the Premiership yeah you didn't score many then but a recurring theme is
[00:38:38] whether it's Blues X-Plyars or West Brom or wherever it comes on everyone seems to score against the Villa have you ever made a goal against the Villa? I do talk us through that who crossed it? I can't remember who crossed it I might have been Java that crossed it they come in a box and I think who's in front of me I can't think of St Rafa's in front of me and he missed it he's tried to hit it and missed it and it's just bad come down at the front I've just swung my left foot and it's just gone straight and I think it's brilliant and that was quite early on in the game
[00:39:08] so yeah I'll never forget it excellent we'll clip that up Villa fans definitely clip that up they think that we've got nothing against them but we're not it's just the stories come out of Villa not that we feed you that do you know what I mean? everyone's got a goal against Villa yeah so throughout your career you've had to deal with some really difficult personal challenges and again at the time it was it was massive yeah and reading through again just for the research for this
[00:39:37] it's tragic what happened to your son do you want to go into that just a little bit more well there was two times so the first time with Sunderland where I lost my son Jake to Kopbev that was really really tough and everyone was fantastic Sunderland fans were fantastic so to go for anyone to go for not just me as a footballer yeah that was a bit of a shock and that took took a while to get over but as a player
[00:40:07] not a player just to sit at home and I just can't sit there and just be sad for I just couldn't do it I went back training after a week whether it was the right thing or wrong thing I went and did it I needed to just go back to training I went back to training after a week and it was like great for me my wife came and just training ground every day have a minute mate yeah and yeah and everyone just
[00:40:36] stopped by me and yeah I think my first game back was against Cambridge United so they made me captain for that game and it was just it was just great to be back playing because how do you deal with a tough time like that so I dealt with it by just right just carry on I think that's just my nature of how I do things just carry on just just I can't stop and start thinking I just had to just get on with it and get through it as quick as I could because it's yeah
[00:41:06] I don't need it I remember the football world was just stick was a the awareness about it though in it made everyone I don't know it was just it was just a really nice touch from the football world and even us his blues fans seeing it Oberlin we had no affinity to it but you just like what would happen you just think what would happen if it was if it was us if it was yeah how do you deal there's no way to deal with it how do you deal with it yeah
[00:41:36] is that when reading as well is that when you lean back into art is that when it was I just would then sit in the lounge and paint selfishly just sit in the lounge and paint and it just meant I could just blank my mind out not forget but just blank and just focus on something else and just yeah and kind of that's where it then I started to push on from there with the art but yeah it's and then it's always been a way to trying to switch off and orbit selfishly
[00:42:06] because I'm painting and I'm switching off and my wife still grieving and so you've got to find your own ways you do you do so that's how I dealt with it and yeah just so happens that you are absolutely amazing at art as well yeah the more I did the better I became so like football the more I did the better I became live art the more I did the better I became was that one of your high levels yeah it was I did A level art and geology so I can paint rocks and that's about it so so yeah
[00:42:35] I said there was two things yeah I was gonna say yeah if that weren't bad enough yeah then Toby got leukaemia which was really tough as well but yeah he's absolutely brilliant now and he's absolutely you know he's fantastic so you know that was a happy ending which was great so but you carry on playing football through that well that was at the end that was literally the end of my career to the last season for Wolves Mick McCarthy got the sack
[00:43:06] Solbecken came in I told he had leukemia he was literally in the hospital for months on end so it wasn't an option for me to go somewhere else it just wouldn't practically work I didn't want to go anywhere else it was either Wolves or nowhere I was still fit enough to play and my tests had been brilliant and Solbecken were just like no I don't want you so he just literally I've been there 10 years he just got rid of me and brought another lad in who never even played who wasn't good enough so it was a bitter way to end my career but I just
[00:43:36] couldn't go anywhere else Toby Adler came and I just couldn't Was you balancing that with training then? I was but I did it and it worked it wasn't like I was missing training it happened at the end of the season and I was injured and then in the off season I still kept fit and I still was down in the hospital so it kind of worked it wasn't a matter of I was in the hospital with Toad
[00:44:05] for days on end and I couldn't go training no it would still be training I'd go straight over to the hospital wouldn't be an issue I could still deal with that so it didn't affect the football but if I was to move club you would have because I wouldn't Toby was in Birmingham children's hospital I couldn't have moved across the country it just wouldn't have worked how did that work with the club I'd seen previously regarding Solbach and the way you treated how did that work
[00:44:35] with the testimonial and the relationship with the club I simple as that so I had a mile and granger with it and I didn't pay for it so yeah did he
[00:45:19] I was more than fit enough to play and I would have helped the team that year maybe I played every game but a
[00:45:49] I been here nine years now I am having a try so I went in that day and said look my son is in hospital so where do I stand because I'm not going to Ireland if you ain't going to sign me I went I went right I got in the car and drove home while you're leaving me I said are you kidding me he just literally got rid of me they could have
[00:46:19] signed me for pennies I mean you know not as in the club put me on a contract for a year for like £90 a week just to say I'm you know to get me to I would have helped them out it would have you know what's that
[00:46:49] like as well because we've had Roger Johnson obviously Blues hero not so much at Wolves well he won't have big money didn't he to Wolves and what's it like where you can't get in the table you've got players on big money underperforming and you know you got Wolves at heart you could step in do yeah frustrating yeah because I'm watching it and I'm thinking I could have helped this team out I really could have and they just slipped and slipped and slipped and you could see what was happening I'm thinking I could have
[00:47:34] yeah just so I kind of blend the club a bit yeah the manager was just doing his player in yes you know he brought no disrespect to foreigners but they brought him in and championships are bloody tough place to play and they just couldn't cut the mustard so to speak but the club could have signed me he was the Mr. Wolf they could have put me
[00:48:05] again with your licenses and stuff looking back I would imagine that you would be someone who would be in the club a bit like bully just kind of being in and around do you know what I mean and kind
[00:48:35] nothing's on the table in terms of football so I'll go into my heart good link as well tell us about your heart I've seen it on Insta I've done it as A level I wasn't great I just scraped my A level I got to a DNA level and when I went to Cambridge I couldn't afford anything so I would just pencil and paper do a few sketches when I went to Bob Ross everyone knows
[00:49:05] Bob Ross you've got AI on your phone now you know Bob Ross so yeah I used to watch him and think yeah I can do that I literally couldn't do it but I thought I'd teach myself to half hour I
[00:49:35] think yeah I can do this I think it was so hard it was such a mess when I tried it if you didn't buy his paints and his brushes you couldn't do it but then I taught myself like football I spent years I'm going to crack this so I literally taught myself everything you know more colours paint with acrylics oil paint so I literally taught myself everything how did how did it go from doing this to someone sees it
[00:50:05] what was the process between someone you just painted for yourself someone seeing it and then you sold a couple and you know
[00:50:47] you know you have hit this kind of niche haven't you where it's cards and you showed us the card and if you still got the cards there if we can see that yeah cards so this is
[00:51:30] Sunderland car trading group and they're great people because all Sunderland supporters so I'm chatting with them and when I'm done one I
[00:54:29] sold
[01:01:00] it was always for the family um yeah so to sit down every day and have a meal with the boys and my family is uh massively massively important so that's my number one this is what i'm proudest of but yeah becoming a footballer was was a big thing i always wanted to be a footballer um i didn't know how to become a footballer how it worked about cadres any of that stuff so to then kind of come to football the route i did literally a lad that would play you know i'd
[01:01:28] jump on my bike and ride five miles to go and play for christchurch every saturday afternoon and then uh yeah garden piss on a saturday night yeah i loved it it was absolutely brilliant but then to become that professional and uh you know forge a career for 20 years is i'm massively proud of it because i know i know looking at it now how difficult it is to get into the game stay in the
[01:01:52] game and forge a career and make some of it you know the money's at the top of the days you know in a premiership and a championship it's good money you know it gets harder the lower down you get so i know how difficult it is to to make money in the game sustain you know try and sustain a life after football and uh yeah but then even harder for players even lower who have to juggle a job and
[01:02:19] play football there's that balance so and then so then players don't go into football because well you know i've got a job if i grab this job i've then got to travel you know from here to manchester on a tuesday night throw misses and kids into the mix exactly it's really difficult so uh so for me to to go in i know it was a bit different when i was 18 you know i had a girlfriend who was my wife now um yeah and you make it work we didn't have kids at that young age and uh you know you make
[01:02:47] it work and it wasn't about it was never about the money it was always about i just loved playing football so they're my two biggest things you know being a dad and having a family and and becoming a footballer and making it making it work being a success it's like one percent isn't it that the mikey but then you've you've made it you're not only made it but you've made it at the elite level and you weren't out of place so i'm finishing seventh yeah in the premier league twice
[01:03:13] at the promotions so it's yeah you didn't just make up the numbers did you no exactly it's about yeah playing the premiership who doesn't want to for me it's the best league in the world i played against some of the the best players again in the best era yeah yeah roob van nisseroy uh robin van percy dennis burke i played against these players i played when i was 18 i played against eric canton oh what's going on here i just literally signed for came well i've been a year at cambridge
[01:03:40] it was my second season and they had a pre-season against man united or all those players brian mclair mark hughes like eric canton i'm thinking this is pretty weird this is i'm like just 19 a year ago i was doing my a levels at uh down in bournemouth and uh here i am planning is eric canton and then there's my mom having a photo with me it's like what's going on just nuts you mentioned some players there who's a dirtiest because you mentioned van de strauss she was the dirtiest yeah yeah we've seen
[01:04:10] that down here yeah he was the dirtiest he'd be trying to have me as i'm going up for a court yeah and trying to run ahead he'd be having me uh and she kind of expected uh another really clever with it though yeah yeah yeah yeah you wouldn't go away you wouldn't go over any of it now because we've seen it on match of the day we've seen our match of the day didn't we but until we've seen it down here we're like he's filth the cops are up down first he's filth yeah yeah but it was so good he was always out of view of the officials and you're kind of
[01:04:39] like well that's that's the way you do it i was 18 for i'm almost 19 for cambridge and mame and davy against stockport and they had kevin francis up front so he's six foot eight and his or what like was and his and his partner was tady priest must have been i think he was six foot four or five i just remember thinking they rang me up the night before and says oh look you know son so's injured he's pulled out you're gonna have to play i'm thinking oh shit yeah well this
[01:05:07] i'm like great cool yeah there's my debut and i'm thinking how am i going to get on against this but i could header and i could tackle and that's what i could do and that's what i could do that was that was my game but he was so dirty i remember i'm standing it must have been a corner or we're up the other end of the field i'm literally stood behind him marking who's this kevin francis and he's just gone she's just tried to album me in the face as i'm stood there i'm ducked underneath
[01:05:34] i'm thinking you fuck it i think thankfully the source yeah i've just gone straight over yeah he's probably too big that's all he missed yeah skims you you fucking like fancy trying to do that i mean but then you know did you have a bit did you have a hand back on someone i just made sure that they knew about when i made a you know attack a lot
[01:06:03] yeah oh yeah oh that's a new toe sorry mate you know generationally yeah so wolves so i wasn't stupid with it i was sensible with it it would have been kind of muscat carl emery those players that were very visibly physical no mind yeah so i was never one that was i was never dirty because i didn't you know i didn't want to be sent off and let the team down it wasn't that was my game i was a team player i needed to be in the team i needed to play so for me to be an idiot it just wasn't
[01:06:29] the guy demand since i've like kind of nice temperament as well like good to know you now as well and then kind of harking back to to then and so so no i wasn't a lunatic on the pitch but i could look after myself a bit really you know if i needed to and uh you know i just loved the tackle who didn't love a tackle if you're sent around so for me to go in a little bit stronger on a tackle but was it was was nothing if someone had been giving me a bit of jipple again yeah especially once i touched it the touches got away from a little bit so you know you're going to win the
[01:06:55] ball and then you can live yeah but you could go in for a proper tackle couldn't you then it's a different now you do it now and it all gets pulled apart on var it's like oh he's just slow it down frame by frame everything looks dirty if you make it slow enough doesn't it yeah yeah exactly so finally then what what advice would you give to both a kid who who wants to be a footballer and or an artist and kind of adding your little bit of kind of education into it and just kind
[01:07:25] of summarize that for us well if you're going to be a footballer you need to have a backup so if you're a young lad going into football i know it's difficult because the end is never in sight uh if you're going to go into football and you are in them you managed to get into football even as a pro on the third second third years just have a backup make sure you have something to fall on if you're to get injured and for you know come out of the game or you don't fill your potential you don't become a footballer because you aren't good enough as you know
[01:07:54] that happens a lot to players and they drop down very very quickly have a backup just have something something to fall back you know whatever it is anything but you know or even have an idea just something that you can do when you when you finish and uh for a young lad coming through that he's trying to make it is practice practice practice that's the only piece of information you're going to need if you want to be the the best at something or at least compete with people who are
[01:08:22] the best then you need to practice and make sure you you know don't give up and just don't give up and keep going and keep practicing i like i said every day off at sun at cambridge i go and just kick a ball at the back of the stand just kick a ball kick a ball kick a ball and it paid off because when i kicked they had some uh some food things and they used to pull the uh the boards up and hook them onto the hook so people would buy the food on a match day so i just hit so these little
[01:08:50] hooks would hang down so i'd be hitting these i'd try and hit these hooks and i couldn't hit the hooks so i'd hit these cupboards these doors instead and it loosened the bolts and these things i could get under and get some food out so i said oh my god i've got under i'm absolutely starving i'd slide under the cage and get some chocolate bars out so if anyone from cambridge is watching i'm really sorry so so practice yeah yeah on that bob shelf yeah exactly no it's been an absolute pleasure
[01:09:18] thanks for your time mate thank you guys if you like this video please do click to subscribe to the channel we currently have five and a half thousand members um over half a million views so let's convert some views into memberships and that will continue to enable us to bring great guests on and continue making great podcasts thanks