[00:00:00] Welcome to the B2B Business Club Podcast with myself and Kev. Today our guests are Jay and Andy from Foundations2Change. Welcome, thank you for your time today gents. Welcome, thank you for having us. Before we get into obviously what you do with the organisation, the important work that you do, could you kind of give us a brief introduction to yourselves, how you ended up working together etc. We're going to go now. Yeah, so yeah like I say thank you for having us. It's a pleasure to be here. Pleasure.
[00:00:29] First time we've done a podcast, so it's nice to be on this. A little bit about myself. So the reason we started Foundations2Change is because I was one of them individuals that we now help. You know, so I grew up great family, Dad worked, Mum looked after us, but there was still an enemy of me. That just didn't feel comfortable in the world. You know, I remember picking up a substance. I was with the older lads and they picked up a substance.
[00:00:57] You know, it was cannabis at the time and I was just like, I can breathe. You know, and I just felt that, yeah that was just our reality. You know, like, and I felt safe and comfortable within that. And then for me it was like I just progressed real quick. So I wasn't one of these that touched the substance and left it. You know, I kind of, I liked that feeling. So it was like, what was the next feeling I could get, you know, and the people that I always aspired to be was always the people that was doing the wrong stuff.
[00:01:27] You know, when I was in school I was that person that looked at someone who was naughty and thought, yeah I want to be like that. I remember being, I remember, I must have been 30 so I was expelled from school at the age of 13. And I remember just before that there was a lad that had been expelled and he'd just gone to prison. And he'd come out and I looked at him like he was going, have you been to prison? What was that like? Yeah. And I just, there was something within me that just knew that I would end up in that situation.
[00:01:54] And you know, and it wasn't for my mum's dad and their guidance, you know, try to get me to college for Brick Lane, try to get me to college for Electrics. Though it wasn't for them not trying, it was just the element of me. Yeah, I just didn't feel, I just didn't feel good in the world, you know what I mean? Like it was scary. And like the reality was just too much for me, you know, and I couldn't really deal with feelings. And as soon as a big type of substance, this is looking back now, knowing they blocked that out. You know, and like I say, from the age of like 15, 40, 15, you know, I was on class A drugs, I was on heroin.
[00:02:25] By the age of 18 I was scripted, you know, and then my life just progressed then for silly offences, you know. Prison for this, prison for that. Always trying to get the drugs. It wasn't, you know, do you know what, my first prison sentence, he was the daft one as well. He was really daft, you know, it was that loss within the world. Someone had slagged me off on Facebook and said, is he not dead yet? And I remember seeing him, I remember driving my car and seeing him and I just pulled over. And I just completely lost, didn't know what I was doing.
[00:02:55] And then, before you know it, it was in the section 18, we were moving to Intent to Kill. You know, and yeah, it was kind of the wake up call in some ways. It was the first time I went to treatment and I went to rehab. And I thought, yeah, you know what, I'm going to go to rehab. I'm going to get a few letters. I'm going to make some change and I'm going to be okay. And like, I didn't really understand what it all entailed, you know. And I remember going to court and I'm sitting down there and some little Asian life come up to me and I told him what was going on. He went, you got a bag ready?
[00:03:25] I went, a bag? And he went, oh, you know, you're going to be going to prison? And I was like, nah. He went, no, you are. I went, seriously, that offence, you are going to be going down. Here's a few little things to take with you. I remember sitting at court and he smacked the hammer and he went, prison. And my family there and I was just like, what? I have got in this situation. How have I got here? You know, I remember my mum, my sister and all that crying. I just went down and just thought, what was that? What was that? HMP.
[00:03:55] I went to HMP Birmingham, that was then. Yeah, yeah. So, actually I just thought, yeah, I didn't know what it was going to be like. You know, and I just went there really scared of like really not being able to show how I feel. You know, having to put this mask on, like pretending that I'm something that I'm actually not. I am not this big, bad person that's hard. That's not the truth. The reality is I'm quite sensitive. I'm soft. But going into that prison system, I have to put this mask on like, I'm alright, you know, I'm this.
[00:04:25] And you know, and I just kind of rolled through it. But yeah, it was a scary time, you know, to start with. You know. And for me, I was in and out and in and out, you know. And I always said, every time, on every letter, on every phone call, I am going back. Like, I want change. And there was part of me, like a real part of me that just said, I don't want to keep doing this tomorrow. I don't want to keep hurting myself. I don't want to keep destroying my family. You know, I want to make positive change.
[00:04:52] But then, the reality is I kind of get to the gate and I'll be given 46 quid or 47 pounds and then left my own devices. And like, off you go. Yeah. And the reason I got into this position, because I don't understand life, I can't navigate the world. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's, I don't know where to get help. And I don't know how to deal with things. You know, like, so then just to be going, there's your 40 quid and go. And expected change. Like, it just wasn't possible. So, I was always in that cycle. I wanted different. But I couldn't see a way out.
[00:05:22] I just didn't know where to get the help. You know, and that. Yeah. And I suppose that's really the main reason why we started Foundation to Change. You know, like, after periods of going in and going out and going to different treatments and as, you know, finally that was kind of, yeah, I'd been shown. Someone came in. What was your moment of clarity then? The start of the cycle? Do you know what? I don't actually know what the moment of clarity was. I think for me, being around people.
[00:05:48] So, I was in the treatment sector where people were working in that organisation that had previously been in the same situation as me. So, they'd previously heroin users, they'd previously been in prison. They'd changed their life. And the things that they did was going to a 12-step programme. You know, and I think that was it for me. Just seeing people living life that had been in the same situation. You know, and I suppose the biggest thing was they were willing to help me.
[00:06:18] And they didn't really want anything from me. You know, they wanted me to get well and they were going to show me the steps that I needed to do that. And I think that was the clarity. You know, I'd built a connection with someone in treatment. Jay was one of them. And there was a lad called Az. And I just kind of, I just knew they'd been where I'd been. And I'm like, well I could do this as well. It's possible. Awesome. So that's where you actually, is that where you first met? That's where we first met. Yeah, yeah. That's where we first met. He was down in a treatment centre in Hockley. Jay had previously been through there. And now he was coming back volunteering, helping.
[00:06:47] And that's where I kind of met Jay. How long had you been volunteering there? So I believe, on reflection, I think I was about 14 to 16 months into recovery. Because you had to be a year to volunteer with this organisation. And the organisation that we went through funded rehab placements back then. So it was a lot of funding. And then it was coming back into Birmingham and it was communal living and then move ons. So our sort of model is adopted on that because the success rate was 86%.
[00:07:18] All right. So people that came through, went out, came back into this programme. And we measured success by people achieving long term recovery, getting their families back, working. And yeah, so that's where we sort of adopted that model because we know it works. What was your experience that led you to that? So like Andy was saying there, I need to be inspired. You know, from a young age, I was inspired by the wrong sorts of people.
[00:07:47] I looked to the wrong sort of people for guidance. You know, I come from a place of rejection, abandonment. My home life was very good in my early days. I lived with caring grandparents. My mum wasn't really around. My dad was never around. And then at the age of 11, they thought it'd be good for me to go and live in London for my secondary education. And live with my mum.
[00:08:10] But to remove an 11 year old child from all his friendship groups, all his schooling, all his friends and family, and then put into a big wide world where he doesn't know anyone, it was really scary. And I remember that feeling of being really scared. But I couldn't identify, I couldn't really communicate it. I didn't know how to because it was a new feeling. And my way to work through that was to become really resistant to my mum
[00:08:40] because of the rejection and abandonment issues I had there. She'd never really been in my life. And I thought, sorry, fuck off. You know, leave me alone and look for the people on, or the lads on the streets, naked motorbikes, throwing eggs at cars, smoking weed. That became really attractive. You know, and I thought, I'm trying to find my people. And then that led me down a barrage of bad decisions
[00:09:07] and then entering the criminal justice system at the age of 12. You know, and like Andy said, I remember going to Exeter. And where? Exeter prison. Oh. Exeter prison. And I remember back then it was the big buses. So I went to court and back then you're on a big coach. You know, I was handcuffed to a big lifer going to the burn or he was going to somewhere else. And I was like, fuck, this shit's real. You know, you know.
[00:09:36] And I couldn't portray this out to be this 12 year old lad. You know, be something that I wasn't. And inside I was absolutely crippled. And I remember getting them being banged up on my door and that relief. And then people saying, do your bird. I was like, what are you going on at that night? I was like, absolutely scared, petrified. And then being open up in the morning and just not knowing. Slop out, breakfast. What's all this about?
[00:10:06] Like, you know, but it was a... Cause I suppose at that time you haven't even got a structure of being an adult. Or what have you ever been looked after and a lot being... And then all of a sudden you were thrown into that. Thrown into that. And it was just like, I'm very resilient. You know, I sort of adapt. I have this chameleon tendency that I can become whenever I'm around, you know. And unfortunately I started to chameleon too.
[00:10:33] And started getting guidance from the wrong people, you know. Because I wanted to live life, but I didn't understand how to live life. You know, I'm coming from a place of fear, insecurity. My ego just grows. And my govado just grows. And my aspirations in life changed, you know. And that led me down a cycle of doing things that I said I'd never do. You know, because I'm a very good, kind, caring, loving person.
[00:11:03] You know, but my addiction took to places that I never wanted to go, you know. And did things that I never wanted to do, you know. But finding ways and means to get more was my main focus every day. You know, it was just... It was about shame, guilt, you know. And the way to cover them feelings was to use more, you know. And if you had gold teeth in your mouth, I'd have taken them from you.
[00:11:33] You know. Was that heroin? Eventually it was heroin and crack. It was a party scene back in the day. So, it was... There was good times in it, you know. 88 to 92, the rave days, Fantasia's. Southwest Underground, so we had all squatters' rights. And I had all these aspirations of, like, squatting rights. And then they bought the pills and... Do you know what I mean? It'd be hard. Do you know what I mean? So, it was a great money-making scheme.
[00:12:03] But reality was, whatever I made, I used. You know, I had loads of friends. You know, we had our VIP area. And yeah, it was just like, I couldn't maintain life. You know, I had great ideas to maintain life and to make money. And this is gonna be it. And I'd be on Ben's for like two weeks, do you know what I mean? And then... Hiring your own supply. Hiring my own supply. And giving it out. Because I wanted friends. You know, I was lonely. I was just insecure. And my way to get friends was to buy friends, you know.
[00:12:32] Please like me. You know, it was like... It's a very vacuous, empty scene, isn't it? Yeah. Under the surface. Yeah. That clubbing scene. Everyone's friends warm. Or you've got something. Everyone's going back to the house, don't they? I've seen that human traffic, isn't it? When they're all chatting on the night and then in the morning, then you just... You don't know what they're going to say to each other. Yeah, it was a period of time where I felt love, but it was induced love. You know, it was... I always longed to have them sort of friendships,
[00:13:01] but I didn't know how to maintain them. So they're always like superficial. Very superficial. And then there, everyone came along. I always said, I'd never take Aaron. I always said, no, I won't do that. Mm-hmm. Don't do that. Because one of these one of them is... Yeah, yeah. One hit is... I remember what my mum saying, because, you know, I used to... She used to know it. I used to smoke cannabis and things like that. I remember walking past someone, I'd never forget it, walk past someone,
[00:13:31] and they were sitting down and they were begging and you could tell they were homeless and that. They're hearing news. And she went, you know if you carry Aaron you'll be like that? And I went, never. Never. I'll never do that. Yeah. Never. I love it. And the reality is I did. Mm-hmm. I don't know when you're anywhere, you go, I can't believe this is where I ended up. No. Or is it just... No. I don't know if I did it to start with. I was just... I remember using it and didn't really know what I was using. I didn't really know any consequences of it. Like I didn't understand like, oh I'd feel ill if I didn't have it. Like I didn't get that.
[00:14:00] But also what I didn't understand, what most people don't understand, the power of addiction. You know, most people just say, just stop. Look what you've done. You've destroyed your life. You've got no family around. You've got no friends. You've got no job. You've got no partner. Just stop. Mm-hmm. And it just really is not that simple. The power of addiction of just to use that next one. Of like any ways, any means. And like...
[00:14:28] Yeah, honestly, it's torturous. And like there's all a part of it that doesn't want to use. Yeah. You know, I say no, no, I'm not going to use again. I'm not going to do it. And I'd wake up the next morning and I'd be like, I'm going to get a tenner from. Obsession. It's just... It's just, yeah. It's the power of it. So if you were kind of a part of his moments and his rehabilitation, how did that happen for you? So for me, it was the same sort of element. I mean, it was lived experience.
[00:14:56] So I'd worked with a lot of professionals in my life. You know, and my head separates me from that because you've got a degree, you're sitting there, but how do you know how I feel and how do I get to where you are? Because I like to be inspired. Yeah. I need to be inspired. And I remember going to a CDT, a community job team, and sitting down with somebody that shared a little bit of him. You know, now I've got major trust issues.
[00:15:24] But now what you've got seems really attractive. Because you're sitting somewhere where I can see from there to there. There's a way from here to there. And I always remember, I was eight standing in the way at the street home, that's two teeth in my mouth, you know. I was neglecting myself on a daily basis. I couldn't manage my money. I couldn't manage my script. You know, I was shoplifting. I was, I had been saying, do you want change? And I turned around and said,
[00:15:54] no, I'm alright with your love. I really believed that my life where I was at, was okay. Because I had this voice inside of me when I kept on going into the prison system again, saying, your life was supposed to be more than this. I didn't know how to change. You know, I just didn't know how to change. Picking up fagnets on the, on the, on the, on the mantis. Like, do you know what I mean? And that's where my life had got to. You know, that was, but that was okay. I sort of accepted that that was okay. I was going to die of you, isn't it?
[00:16:23] You know, because I didn't know how to change. And then also somebody sitting there, that inspires a little bit of hope. Because now I want to know how you got to there. So I trust a little bit. You know, I mean, suggestive. And I went with that suggestion. And my life started to change. I started to make decisions about coming off scripts onto sub-texts. Do you know, when I look back at it now, it was just like that pivotal moment that actually, this is cool. Mm-hmm. But you've been smiling too, didn't you? The other five ways, didn't you? Yeah.
[00:16:53] Yeah, yeah. The four, yeah. Before and afters. Mm-hmm. And that's 2011. I wasn't even just hearing crack there. I was cross-addicted to Frosty Jack. Frosty Jack alcohol. Walking out on the late rim, us doing sub-texts and on scripts. So I thought I was clean then. I thought I was doing well. Was your version clean? I thought I was doing well. I'd hear people say about abstinence. I thought being on script and drinking topest amounts of alcohol was being clean. Because you're not taking heroin. I'm not taking heroin.
[00:17:23] You know? And it's just like, phew. It's quite sad, you know, but all that decision's gotten to where I am now. Mm-hmm. And all that experience has brought us to building foundations to change. And that's the pivotal thing because if we can change, anyone can change. So how do you go then from kind of making that acquaintance to building? Making it all easier? So we both worked.
[00:17:50] So we both started working as peer mentors, wasn't it? For the charity sector. So we both worked for a shelter, the homeless charity. And do you know what? I have to give it to them in a sense because with the criminal record, the majority of people just would not employ you. They'd look at your criminal record. They'd look, you haven't got work history and they say no chance. That's just the truth of how it is. What they did, they looked at your experience. They looked at your criminal record.
[00:18:18] They looked at your, some of your needs that you have where your homeless mental health addiction system, which had said, great, because we can utilise you to support that next person. So they really believed in lived experience. So that's kind of how we started, wasn't it? We both became peer mentors for an organisation, both in different areas. Jay was more the criminal justice system and I was more like the street homeless. And we just kind of progressed from that, you know, and that was how we were introduced really to work in a sense.
[00:18:47] And then, yeah, I mean, we always used to sit down and just see the gap of what was missing and just known from our own experiences of when we left that prison system and when we got to the gate, that we wanted change. Where was it? Well, that's your unique selling point, isn't it? Like, go back to a bloke who's sitting here with a degree telling you this is the way it's supposed to be. You guys are lived experience, aren't you? You're like, probably even worse than whoever you're talking to over the table.
[00:19:15] You're not seeing this can happen kind of thing that's your... My passion is the criminal justice system. You know, and like Andy said, we saw a gap and we'd been part of a process. We've worked in rehabilitation settings. We've worked in rehabilitation settings. And we know that the model that we have works from rehab and security. You know, people will sustain long-term recovery.
[00:19:39] So we approached the NHS in HMP Birmingham and said, listen, we've got a model that if you want to see change, you know, we've got a model that will be able to take prisoners, reduce them on script, give them some hope. And then we embed them into a recovery community with ongoing support, benefits, developmental processes, you know, because we all... Me and Andy have had to develop ourselves to get to here. Yeah. We've had to take our time with that.
[00:20:09] And did you see stuff that Shelter wasn't doing that you thought, oh, that would be handy in you as part of your business model or...? I don't even think it's Shelter itself. I just think like Birmingham itself wasn't really doing it anymore. Like funding had gone. And like you said, me and Jadie, we went to the manager of the NHS and says like, let's, can we come in? Can we speak to prisoners? And can we see what they need? Because it's alright, you know, setting up a project, you know, but how do people really know that's what they need? Yeah.
[00:20:39] Well, let's people tell them what they need. Let's switch it round instead of doing it from the top. Let's go to the bar and let's see what people need, like the service users that are going to get the support. Yeah. And what do you need to make this change? Like what do you feel will really help you that's missing? So we went into the prison. We kind of mapped it out. We spoke with prisoners. They told us what some of their needs was, you know, which was the same as what it was for us 10 years before. And then we kind of went away and built like a programme.
[00:21:07] And, you know, yeah, by the Gratts Guard, Trevor, he kind of says, yeah, yeah, I want you to do a pilot, please. So we went in, delivered a pilot within HMB Birmingham. Bearing in mind, we've both got criminal records. All time jobs. And they went, yeah, we want you in. So you built that arraigned on the side from everything else. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[00:21:32] And so we went in and kind of delivered that pilot and the pilot was a complete success. And we went away, left, you know, finished the pilot and the prison come back and said, you know, we want to offer you a contract. You know, we know what you're doing is making change. We can see that physically from the people that you're supporting and the difference you're making. We want to give you a contract. And that was really the start of Foundations of Change within the prison system. I always remember on that pilot, we funded for somebody to go to rehab for him.
[00:22:02] So he came to the eight-week program and we funded somebody to go down to Gloucester, wasn't it? Gloucester, yeah, yeah. Stroud it was. Stroud. Repeat offender, continued like prolific offender. And I always remember when Andy picked up from the gate, there was the band Seven NHS working out and she was in tears because she'd never seen an organization. You know, she says it's been needed for years. And she knew in and out, in and out, in and out. A couple of days after Christmas, wasn't it? Literally.
[00:22:33] And to raise that funds to start with, we did a kind of a boat ride. So we rode, and this is like us making wanting to make some real change, you know, we rode 109 miles in eight and a half hours on a bike. Yeah, yeah, but, and like kind of, yeah, we went like a GoFundMe and like people, you know, we raised funds, I think we raised 5,000 and something pound. We managed to pick that person up straight from prison. As soon as he left the gate, picked him up, clothes for him, food for him,
[00:23:02] took him straight to the, to rehab. And that's kind of the stuff that, yeah, that's, that's, that's really how we started. The finding ways and means to get more is a transferable skill. Yeah. You know, so we used, we used to use it to find ways and means to get more drugs. Yeah. You know, now that finding ways and means to get more, you know, if it's going to impact that person there, we'll go to any lengths, do you know what I mean, to find the money or, do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean?
[00:23:30] And we have to put ourselves through pain to get that, but through pain cost purpose. Yeah. And that's our motto really is to make sure that, um, we've done 300 miles in three days. We've done, we've done some really like extensive riding and fundraising. And we'll continue to do that because it's a need. Being a small grassroot organisation that's trying to chip away, you know, unfortunately we don't have the big bid riders. We don't have the big pots of money.
[00:23:59] And so we have to put ourselves through pain or try to achieve. To achieve. So we were talking before, weren't we, about funding and what is the challenge? What are the biggest challenges around funding and getting your hands in that pot of money? Obviously this organisation's bigger than yourselves that are funded. Yeah. How are you finding getting a share of those pots? To be honest, it's been tough. It's been real tough.
[00:24:25] And look, everyone knows that Birmingham City Council at the minute, there's not really a lot of funding there. Um, obviously they declared bankruptcy and things like that. So the element of funding to support people isn't there as it was. And I think the main thing is we've got big organisations within Birmingham that will say that they deliver a certain aspect of support or recovery model. But really when you look into it, it's kind of not actually there.
[00:24:54] So we're coming in from a lived experience, like a small organisation, like, not, like we're coming to barriers. You know, we're saying that we feel this is going to change people. This is our evidence. These are the people who are supported. But sometimes you get stuck in a cycle where people don't really want change. Yeah. You're disrupting. It's quite comfortable the way they are. They are getting their funding. Yeah. You know, they are, they're able to kind of get that funding.
[00:25:20] And for us to go in, start knocking the door and say, well, we feel that you could change this. And this is what we feel needs to be changed, you know. So, yeah, it's been tough. You know, we are, we are struggling in that area, aren't we? We are there. Yeah. There's certain organisations that are big. They've got the big bid writers. They've kind of locked the area off in a sense of like recovery, support, homelessness, criminal justice system. But when you look into it, the element of support they're giving isn't actually there.
[00:25:48] And the truth is that our model is completely different. We are a complete person-centered model through the element of lived experience, breaking down the barriers for our own experience, looking at what that person needs and sort of hand-holding them all the way through every process, you know, to get to their goal of what they want. Whether it's the right support accommodation, whether it's volunteering opportunities, whether it's a bank account, whether it's getting in touch with their family and looking at family accounts, whatever it is for that individual will work for them to achieve that.
[00:26:19] And some of the, you know, some of the test runners we've got. Yeah. I'd say they're amazing. It's literally life and death, isn't it? You're turning people's lives right? People have literally died, literally died. They've managed to find recovery through Foundation to Change. And now they're like family, children, jobs, paying back into society, waking up happy in a home, paying bills.
[00:26:46] Like this is the complete transformation of that street homeless addict that just wants to die. And that's, you know. I think I was just saying in your talk, in your thing before, ultimately if you're investing in this person, they are going to be giving you tenfold back in the taxes and whatever they've got to pay when they get clean and they get normal, as it were. But remember that's something that stuck with me when you were talking.
[00:27:14] To put someone into the prison system, now whether they're in there for a week or in there for a year, it's £52,000. So that's just for one prison sentence. So you look at the criminal justice every time the people have been arrested. You look at all their shoplifting offences. You look at what they've done to the retail. You look at what they've done in and out of hospitals. You look at what they do on substitute medications. So you just look at all aspects, you know, and you add that up.
[00:27:42] You're talking hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of pounds. Easy. Someone that picked up drugs at 15 and got clean at 14, then you've got just a life of chaos. Yeah. You're talking hundreds of thousands of pounds. And you're asking for a fraction of that too. A fraction. And what that fraction does that just completely will help transform someone. Managing services for the NHS for sure is a lot different than building your own sort of charity and your organisation. So we've got one contract.
[00:28:12] We're a small organisation. So we have to build our prudent reserves. We have to be really savvy around our money. But the thing is, it's about moving the people towards, you know, and we've got to build, we've got to try to build a team, more staff on the ground. We're three people. You know, we're three people that are having massive impact within a system that's broken.
[00:28:35] You know, so if you imagine if we've got another three people full-time employed, you know, we know, we know, we know, we know. And the rest, yeah? We can, it's just growing. It's going to be a tree wide. This could be a national role now. We're looking at other contracts in prisons, but with all the things that have been happening within the system recently, things have been put on the back burner. So it's, it's a massive struggle for us because we get these opportunities, we're outsourcing opportunities, opportunities come in and think, yeah, right, and then it falls straight. Yeah.
[00:29:04] Which can be, this can be soul destroying. Mm-hmm. It can be soul destroying at times, but you still have to keep getting up because you see the impact you have on people's lives. And people are moving forward. So that's a massive drive for us. It's, it's, yeah. And it's like, the prison system, like we, like we said, we've just spoken around that, of what we're supporting to do with people within the prison system. So I'm building that choice that report, the eight week program that we've kind of got, whether that's looking at relationships,
[00:29:30] that's looking at feelings, whether that's looking at connections, whether it's looking at the addiction itself. Um, and then we've got that transition through the gate into the community, you know, and then like I say, handholding. But then we knew there was a gap still. Now we're only paid for that prison system. We paid for that contract within the prison, but we knew that that wasn't enough. Like we need connection within the community. And we were like, well, what can we do? And we spoke to, you know, the individuals that we're working with and they're like, we need some community groups.
[00:30:00] You need stuff in the community so we can all come together. So we can all support each other. And that's kind of what we did. And we, we set up, like we went, looked at the areas, like which was the most need, Erdington's. You know, we've got the Mosley's, you know, now we've got, you know, Bones, the centre itself. Uh, and we've kind of, yeah, we started to deliver a lot of ourselves. Yeah, we funded ourselves. Funding ourselves. Yeah, I was going to say, this couldn't have happened at a worse time, could it? The funding cuts. Nah. Community funding cuts. Yeah. So that's what Dave was saying, wasn't Che Arane.
[00:30:28] Even getting the kids doing, er, music competitions, er, getting a bit of studio time. Mm. It was nothing, but it was literally life challenging for these kids when they were going to spend some time in the studio. Yeah. But yeah, obviously the change of government and the cuts and the community cuts and then operation breaking Dawn. That's it. Yeah. Decide on the flip of her head that they're going to release prisoners early. Which, which that in itself is great.
[00:30:57] No one's saying, I'm not sitting here saying we shouldn't release prisoners early. But what I am saying is support needs to be put in place for that person. Well, the whole narrative isn't it? On the news, the narrative that they chose was they were interviewing the guys as they were coming out. Mm. They were talking about being picked up in sports cars left, right and centre. And everyone that they interviewed that they chose to air is going, oh, brilliant, thanks a lot. Oh, I'm going to the pub now. And then there's nothing. It's the way it is.
[00:31:25] Yeah, a couple of the people coming out saying, I've got nothing lined up. I don't know. Yeah. They told me I'm going. I've got nothing. I don't know what I'm meant to do now. Mm. But without awareness, there can be no change. Mm. You know, and Foundation of Change sort of brings that awareness back home, you know, through the lived experience. Because I always, I'm always going to do what I always did, you know, if I don't know what I'm doing. If I think that's the norm, I'm just going to keep doing it.
[00:31:49] And when you set people up to HMOs and people are using hair and crack, I can have all the willingness in the world to change. But I've become the company I keep. Mm. So if you put me with a load of people at a shoplift in and graphic, I'm just going to become that, you know. And we've had one lad that's just come out, that did our program. And he's reduced, he was released on that SDS 40. And they came and spoke to him and said, well, where do you want to go to?
[00:32:19] Protective factors, my family's here. I want to go back to there. I've reduced on script. I've done foundations to change. I've been told about abstinent living. I want to embark on a recovery journey. So it's okay. And then he came to pick up on the day of release. He was put into Princess Street, which is a hostel in town where everyone is on complex needs, flat out using. And luckily he came into service and he's now in abstinent accommodation.
[00:32:48] He's been important to recovery, you know, and, but he knew there was a way out. You know, and he said to us, he says, thank God that I came to you and I did that work because I was never aware there was a way out until I met you guys. And now I have the willingness to come into service, into our community groups and say, listen, I'm struggling, I need help.
[00:33:10] Yeah, so you've got that one person because the reporting after that was there seems to be a great pleasure taking in saying X amount of prisoners that came out are now back in a police station. And he said, just as a vicious circle. Yeah, yeah. And he said, that's that. That's what we're saying. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the boy came out there, he's, he's happy outside next thing. Yeah, he's back in prison like it's a reality TV show or something. But that was, that's our experience. That was our experience many years ago.
[00:33:41] Wanting change, not wanting to do what I was doing, come to the gate, and that's it. And like my head was saying, I'd come out the gate and it would just say, listen, this is, this is my addiction. It would just say, even though I've got all them years of pain, misery, heartache, destruction, I'd get to the gate, I couldn't deal with life. And it'd say, just have one, just have one.
[00:34:07] And then before you know whether it's alcohol, whether it's drugs, whatever it may be, bam, and I'm gone again. And like you say, I'm not surprised that people are back within the prison system. And this is the thing that we are, we will keep on shouting, and we'll keep on saying, and we'll keep on fighting, and we'll keep on telling everyone that people need the full transition of support when leaving prison. You can't just leave someone at the gate and say, that's it.
[00:34:34] Like, you can't, people need, you really need to understand how people feel, what's going on for them. Probably a lot of them have burned bridges with family out of the house, so they've got no one to go when they get out of there, to just be like, I'll just give the off license or whatever. And when you come out of that gate, so you're scared of your feeling, it's scary. You know, all of a sudden, you're back out in a big wide world, you've been cooked up in 69 for so long, the wee toiletries stocked up with your chocolate biscuits and all that, you think you're doing well.
[00:35:00] You know, and then you come out and you've got 46 pounds in your hand, and all of a sudden it's, yeah, big wide world. You know, responsibility, I don't like responsibility. I've avoided responsibility all my life. There's an off license there, he's going to score some crack and heroin. I won't do that, because I know that takes me. But what I'll do, I'll treat myself to a couple of cans of beer while I get on the bus to go to an HMO. Then I'll go to probation. You have a couple of cans of beer, you have the bus and smoking crack.
[00:35:30] You know, because I've put one in me. And then all of a sudden, I remember my only option, my best decisions towards the end of my using was, I kept on getting short term sentences. Right, and when I was in there, I was offered to go out, parcel up and come back in. Right, and that seemed like a great idea because that was the only choice I had in life.
[00:35:58] And this is what we're up against, you're with people that have that as an only choice. They get exploited by people in the jail and all they've got to do is go out, spend their 46 pounds, use, smash a window, parcel up, come back in and they get paid. You know, that's, when you've only got them choices in life, we have to give them more choices than that. Yeah, but the truth, the reality is deep down people won't want to keep doing that.
[00:36:25] It's not like, prison is an easy option in some ways as in your life is managed for you. You're going, you know when you're opened up, you know when you're getting fed, you know when you're going to get your canteen. It's managed. What's not managed. That's what people get that wide, I don't know. I think that's what they call it when you get, what's the word? Institutionised, yeah, yeah. And you speak to people and it's not that they want to do that. People just can't manage life outside.
[00:36:54] Like you said, they can't manage feelings, can't manage responsibility, can't manage relationships. Most people just avoided that. They have, you know, they have. They've used drugs or alcohol so they don't have to deal with that. That is their coping mechanism for life. You know, you talk to people and it's sad, you know, and they just say well, look I know what's going on in their prisons, is it? How widespread is it, the drug use in prisons? Oh, huge. In every video you see the links that you see on the sunset and everything like that,
[00:37:21] where everyone seems to be having a party in there every day and everyone's smoking and doing whatever. It's an epidemic. Yeah, whether it's drugs that have been kind of passed over the fence, whether it's the, you know, there's more prison staff that are bringing it in. Whether it's medication itself. You know, you go to some prisons and it's that high security that everyone is just, you know, addicted to medication. So it's medication that's been sold.
[00:37:48] So if he's not your man, be his spouse, your heroin, your weed, it's tablets. But I always remember, so the guidance I used to have in the criminal justice system all the time. So I used to get all my mental health diagnosis from a pal because he had good medication. You know, and that was the aspirations in life. So if I found out that Clamazepam got you off your nut, I said, hey, what have you got to say to the doctor and nurse for that? To get some tips and hints. To get some tips and hints.
[00:38:16] So then I'd go and portray, believe in the lie. Listen, I'm bipolar. I am. Because my motive is getting the medication. And that's the choices. You know, that's what we're trying to unpick the rehabilitation, make people aware of. Once you become aware of your motives, then you can sort of change, can't it? But unless you're aware of that, it's just your drive, isn't it? It's just the norm. Yeah.
[00:38:40] It's a good question I'm hearing about obviously feeling safe in prison, but how do you turn that around? So how do you turn that around? Six to eight weeks? I know you said that's a good question earlier. Yeah, yeah. It's a good question. You know, people are in there for multiple years. So how do we do that? I think the main reason that we do that is, like I said, through our lived experience, through... As they come out of the gate and bosh. No, no, we'll get them. No, no, no. We'll work with them while they're in the prison. Right.
[00:39:08] So when they're in the prison system, we'll go into the prison system and we'll deliver groups. But I think what's different about our groups is, one, we lived experience. So everybody knows that we have previously been in that position, which for me, that was the breakthrough for my recovery, seeing people like Jay, knowing that they'd been through that and there was clean, they looked happy. And it was like, yeah, I want that. So we go in with that element of we understand how you feel and we know how you feel. We've been in this position.
[00:39:36] But we also know, no, there's a way out. And I think the biggest thing for our groups is, you have a lot of ego, a lot of barriers. You know, you have to pretend on this, pretend on that, pretend on either. Where our groups is like, you don't. It's okay to be sad and it's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to feel scared. That's how we felt. And I think that's where we get people at that state of where they're being vulnerable, because then you really understand what people need.
[00:40:06] So in there as well, how hard do you find it within the prisons to pull people into the groups? I know Winston Green's a big gang element, isn't that? You find like you say the bravado, is it not seen as a sign of weakness then within certain groups if you go and actively look for help? I think because our groups are quite, what's the wording that we're looking for? We aren't just set focused on one thing. I think, you know, there's lots of elements to the group work that we do.
[00:40:34] Like I was saying, whether it's relationships, whether it's finance, whether it's mental health, whether it's addiction, whether it's recovery. There's lots of elements to the group. So it's not just like a one thing fits all. Our group is really tailored to lots of needs. But I understand what you're saying. What was the question again that you did say? How difficult do you find it within the prison system? We have a waiting list of 35. Really? So what we find is... How does that work then?
[00:41:04] So you're in, if I'm in there, how do I, how do I make contact you? So within the group work, the eight weeks, we build relationships with people through getting vulnerable. And then what we, what we're finding, what we've found is word of mouth. So then the recovery process happens within a group setting of eight people. These eight people then take this recovery process back onto the wing and start supporting everyone else. So now all of a sudden your recovery is going really fluid, really conduit. It's like transforming the wings.
[00:41:34] So it becomes really attractive for the people on the wings. So then the people on the wings are going to Trevor and Mark. How do you get on that Dundas again? I want to be on it. I want to be on it. So then it's just like... They're saying people get clean. They're saying people get clean. People get clean, people changing, supporting. It's like, well hang on, they're dropping the ego and bravado. So that then enables them to get a little bit vulnerable. They're saying people get clean. You know, because that's what we're trying, that's what we're working against. Ego, bravado, all these masks.
[00:42:01] And we've seen, Trevor and Mark, that's sort of repeat offenders. They're talking around fear and sadness and shame and guilt. They would never think that. No. They'd never talk around that. No, you wouldn't. But that's becoming attracted to the people on the wing then, you see, because now people are becoming normalised to how life should be. If he's saying it then. And he's a big head. He's a big head. He's a big head. And like you say, it is just, even just us going within that prison.
[00:42:28] So like, knowing that we've previously been a prisoner, that we've previously been locked up in the same cells that they're in. Yeah. That now, bearing in mind some of the screws still know me from years ago. I'll carry some kudos as well. Yeah. I've got the one in the jail. He called me. I've got a parking spot. I've got staff there that call me Bender Boy. Because there was that much of a nose. They used to bend me up. So they still call me Bender Boy in there. It's mad.
[00:42:58] I'm walking there. He's a proper little mouse. I'm just scared. He's all like, hey, he's like, yeah, I'm like, it's all like, hey, prick, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Crick, come on, go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But just that itself knowing that people, yeah, it's like, you know, you've been there. You've done it. And now you've got changed. And it is, honestly, it's attractive. It was attractive for me. Like, I really want to get there.
[00:43:27] I don't want to keep doing what I'm doing. And for me, I'm looking at you like, you've been there. You've done it. You're transforming. You look happy. You're telling me you've got life. You're telling me you've got children. You've got family. I want this. This is the stuff I want. Now, what do I need to do? Tell me what I need to do and I'm going to try and follow it. And, you know, you support them with them steps. And I think that's a big thing itself. And going back as well, I always believed when I was in that lifestyle that my DBS of how many pages it was was always going to hold me back from working.
[00:43:54] And all of a sudden you see somebody that's got lived experience, the same DBS as me, that's got keys to a jail, that runs a charity, that's got a family. That's really attractive. Because if you don't think that, then you think, I've ballsed it up anyway. I've signed up to being an addict for a minute. Is this something that opens up? I've got no hope. Especially if people get older, you know, like 40s, 50s, 60s. People are like, am I ever going to change? Like, what is the point? Like, I've missed out on all this.
[00:44:23] Yeah, because we were talking earlier, weren't we? To the light person that hasn't been in that system, talk of suicide is quite taboo. Even just in general population, people don't really talk about suicide, but you guys are hearing it on a daily basis. And it's just even on their testimonials with your colleagues, Fred. Fred, they're talking every day, I'm going to kill myself. I'm going to get around killing myself. People are like, what? That's, you know, extraordinary. But that's part and parcel of what you're listening to every day.
[00:44:51] That training package now has gone across all jails across England. I've noticed that's been shown in all induction units, this and that because it needs to be spoken around. And lived experience then frees people to actually speak around that, you know. So that was a great bit of work that the team did for that, I think. I think people haven't been in it. I don't really understand you, like, you know, people who want to kill himself daily.
[00:45:19] But that is the truth of what you hear. Like, who really wants to be stuck in a prison cell, addicted to drugs? Every time they come out, they hurt their family. They just, you know, they're robbed, they're steel, they're cheap, they don't wash. They've got no home, nowhere to live. Who really wants to be that person? No one. You don't, it's no wonder at the end. You know, what is the point?
[00:45:49] What is the point of life? I'm going to keep going out and I'm going to keep doing the same thing. Sad. It is sad and like, the only positive is, is kind of, I feel, where were you coming? Like there is change and it is possible and you can get a life and you can have a family and you can work and you can make a difference in society. So what is the future? How do we expand what you're doing? What you're doing and how you're actually influencing the lives of the people
[00:46:18] that are coming out and being rehabilitated? It's life-changing, it's revolutionary. So how do you, as a disruptive influence in this industry, how do you expand then your services? How do you get out there? What are you doing and you're not even going to be greedy, do you mean? It's just about getting some more stuff on the ground, cut more stuff on the ground. We've approached organisations and said look we've got this model, you can have the outcomes.
[00:46:44] And we seem to be going up against closed doors. We've approached Labour government, we've done press statements, you know. So we're chipping away. And again, just always looking off camera, they could make the change and talk about what they're doing by giving you guys the reins to do it. We know we have saved the taxpayer millions.
[00:47:11] When I mean millions, I mean millions per person that we've supported. We've saved millions. And we're not even asking for a million. We're not even asking for one million. We're saying can you provide staff for our organisation to deliver what we deliver within the prison systems, not just HMP Birmingham but nationally. We know the difference will make us huge and how much we will save.
[00:47:37] I'm saying two staff, imagine if you had fishy staff around the country, what kind of... Yeah. I'm trying to go the way you can scale all that you can say, this is the blueprint, this is the framework for your staff to follow. HMP Birmingham is that for us, that's kind of our blueprint. What we deliver within HMP Birmingham. Also then what we deliver in the community, we've got that full transition. We meet someone that's still scripted. Yeah, well that's... We support them straight through the gate.
[00:48:06] We support them with all the different needs, whether it's benefits, whether it's bank account, whether it's recovery housing. Support them through that transition into volunteering and then we've also got training for people. And then also what we've got at the end of that, we've got employment for individuals. And the new thing what we've got on top of that, we've now got actual one bedroom flats. That's for individuals, that's going to be just your general needs for individuals now that want to start working.
[00:48:36] So we've even got the full transition. I don't know an organisation that's got that. Because that was the issue you see. So we're up against a system that's broken, we're up against a system that's setting people up to fail. So our jobs is to identify the barriers and move people forward. So I need to feel like I'm moving forward. And needs to feel like I'm moving forward. And our clients need to feel like they're moving forward.
[00:48:56] So if you're putting somebody in this transition of learning and you're building them up and say they take two years and you put them to house and make housing, they achieve long term. It's a variety. They achieve getting their families back in their life. They develop themselves to a stage of getting education, qualifications, you know, going to college, going into training and all that sort of stuff. Then they want to go into a job.
[00:49:24] So we're now stuck in a system where they're bottlenecked in a dry house that only takes benefits. So now they get to a stage where they feel really good in their lives and they're ready to embark on that next part of the journey. But the council can't house you if you're a single male. You know, so now you're sitting in a system where you can't move forward. So now we've identified that and we've got the flats up.
[00:49:49] You've got to earn, to pay rent and when you might as well just down benefits. Well, we know, this is the problem you've got. So we know individuals that they say they're in a dry house, but because they get the supported element of housing benefit, the organisation will get 200 back 250, 220 per week for that person. Because they've got the element of support attached to their needs. That individual is now ready to, like you say, embark on their own accommodation or work. But you need to earn a lot of money then to start renting a property.
[00:50:18] Most people have never done that before. So that's like a whole new experience itself. So they're saying, well, you know, I want to work. I'm in this organisation. So the organisation is saying, well, you can, you can stay here, but you've got to match what the benefit is. You've got to pay a thousand pound for this room a month. So people are in that kind of catch-20, like I want to work. Yeah. But how am I going to get that? It's going to be detrimental too. And this is where Foundation Change have linked in with Troydon.
[00:50:44] So now Foundation Change and Troydon are working together to now be able to support repeat offenders, people on that next stage of their journey into their own accommodation, general needs tenancy, so they can start being productive and working. So within that as well, we've secured our office space, our hub in town. So we're speaking to clients yet again that don't understand how to manage money. They have no cooking skills, life skills or so on.
[00:51:10] So they're now speaking to us saying, I want to understand how to manage a tenancy. I want to understand how to cook, how to budget. So we're now implementing that in our hub. So it will give them a period of time where they get cooking skills, they learn to develop life skills. When you're stuck in a system of having your life managed for you, I never knew how to cook or food or look after the children or how to manage a tenancy, how to pay bills.
[00:51:39] So, yeah, again, we're stepping in and we're going to start putting a programme in place for that to get people ready for a two year period of going on to employment and moving forward, breaking that regulation. Hiring back into the system. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Getting back in the rap race. That's it, when you say how much money you've saved the taxpayer, you're taking someone out of that system, you're taking out the need to keep them in prison, you're taking out the need to rehabilitate them, you're taking out the need for the NHS to look after them.
[00:52:06] You're then turning into a taxpayer, which is putting money back into the economy, back into the government. It's a turnkey solution from start to finish, isn't it? We've paid taxes for 15 years. We took the system for a long period of time, but we've paid taxes for 15 years. Seems like a no-brainer, doesn't it? Seems like someone needs to listen and just... How do you guys find the time? It's quite a substantial amount of work involved in, from where you're taking them to getting through to
[00:52:35] the prison, so in housing, so in the next steps to try and... How do you manage your time around with just the three of us? It's hard. It's hard. We're having, what, 18 people per session in the community turn up. Each group in the community is like eight or three. So 36 people a week turn up, then we're supporting another eight to 16 in the prison.
[00:53:03] So there's a big caseload of people. We talk about 36 people per week. Some of them are like new clients each week. So we're still supporting the old. So the caseloads are big and the individuals are supported. So, yeah, it's tricky. No sick days. It takes time. Yeah. What's that? It's like juggling. It's a lie, isn't it? It's a lie, isn't it? Juggling.
[00:53:29] But as much as it's juggling, and as much as the barriers that we're hitting, and as hard as it can be, we're not going to stop doing what we're doing, because we know the difference we're making, and we're determined to get to the next stage of this being a national model, just because you know it works. So that's what we're going to do. Yeah, definitely. Going back to your talk as well, I forget the lads in the name that got up, but just tell us about some of your, yeah, tell us about some of the guys that you've worked with and how they're kind of inspirational,
[00:53:58] because, yeah, I think it was Dean, wasn't it? Dean wasn't it? So, yeah, I think, Dean, stopped within the system for 20 odd years, you know, just like us at Baines' system, you know, I thought we had all the answers to life, you know, took from everyone and hurt everyone, and Bernard Winsbridge was family and community, came through our process. He's now a family man.
[00:54:22] He works for Hepatitis Hep C Trust, so he's now a frontline worker working with people that have the same issues as him, and he's inspiring people to move forward, and he's just one. You know, the many, you know, it's just one out of the many. And these testimonies are on your website, aren't they? Website, on our Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn, that's our social. Foundation to Change on Facebook and Instagram.
[00:54:51] So could people, to say people seeing this that we're getting inside information, could the family member kind of contact you and say? I have that, yeah, so we have, yeah, yeah. So on the website now, or even on Facebook and Instagram, there's a referral on www.foundationtochange.org. So that's our website. People go on to our website, there's a referral process on there, that will come to us, and we can start working with people from that.
[00:55:17] Like I say, all the Instagram and Facebook, you know, private messages, and we can start working with people that way. Because I imagine if you're not in that particularly early, and someone sees this, the podcast or whatever, that could be like, okay, are you interested? I'm really interested, my partner's really interested in this? I had someone on Friday. Yeah, it was a mum that was worried about her son, told me he's been out of the prison system, he's using substances, she's really worried that he's going to end up dead.
[00:55:47] What's the process to get onto kind of our groups and what do we do? So I had to chat with her, you know, explain the different groups that we do, explain like my own story, give her a little bit of hope and tell her where she needs to go. So hopefully he'll start coming to our groups. That's really good. That's really good. Yeah. But there is, there's that many testimonies that we've got, like, when a mum's been out of the prison system, I mean, the people that we work with are literally broken, have nothing. He literally saved their life.
[00:56:13] On the point of like death's door in some cases, like that, you know, that hopeless addict, that does not know a way out, to then being able to work with them for a period of time to help transform their life. Like I say, like, there's people who are married, people who know about children, people who know about taxpayers, they've got their own home, they've got friends, they wake up, they're quite happy with themselves. Like, that in itself, it's just a transformation. For you seeing them when you met them. Honestly, we love it. Just like. Yeah.
[00:56:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a peer-ed model, so you're embedding people at different stages of their life. You know, so you've got people that have got, as far as you're clean time, they're professionals, they're married, and you've got people that have 30 days, you know, that are, but the person who's got 30 days, that's more of an inspiration to the person walking through the door, you know, than some, because it's achievable. What's 30 days? 30 days clean or 30 days abstinent, you know, so they're not on a script, they're not using, they're getting a zest for life, you know, they're attending.
[00:57:12] They could have been on a script for years and years and 30 days. Yeah. It's massive. Yeah, yeah. I think that's what's good, that we've got, like, different stages of recovery. Like Joe was saying, you walk through the door, you look at someone that's 30 days without using anything, that is attractive. That person that's 30 days is looking at someone that's six months, that's attractive. That person that's six months looking at someone that's a year without using something, that's attractive and kind of that's how it goes.
[00:57:35] You're hitting these walls then where you're trying to, what you do is a fantastic, pure thing, and you're hitting these walls then, like, there you say you get people clean, then there's no requirement for prescription drugs that somebody's being paid to give them, I suppose. Yeah, pharmaceutical companies are making millions. Yeah, your housing, you get them out there to get away from the housing with benefits, then the landlords or the companies that get to tag that money, find that money. So it's, there's a lie, isn't there? So you think, right, this is the right thing to do.
[00:58:05] Yeah, yeah. But these companies and these obstacles in place where you're disrupting the finances of people that have these things in place. We're up against greed, you know, we're not greedy, you know, because we're seeing the impact, but unfortunately, we're up against organisations. They're very greedy and getting their needs met because people are stuck. That rely on the cycle.
[00:58:29] They rely on the cycle, you know, that's the system. That's the system. It's set up to fail the people it serves. Whereas we're a solution, which are meant to serve the people, but they don't, the system doesn't want to see that. Perfect. Perfect ending. Nice, James. Thank you. We appreciate that. We really appreciate it. Yeah, we'll see you with the sky. It's definitely a good work. Thank you. Hopefully, God willing, we'll get there. We will. You will. We will. Cheers, James. Thank you.